Please all be aware that my time is very limited and my passion right now is to deal with the errors of Lordship Salvation. I have quite a few things that are of more immediate concern and so I may not be able to engage quickly or consistently in this thread. However I open it in the hopes of helping a few.
I believe the Apostle Paul defines the Gospel of Jesus Christ in 1 Cor 15:1-11. This may sound less than gracious but once read, I can't find a reasonable reason why the Believer could think otherwise. I make this statement known because it must be said that I do not decide what to believe, the Word of God has declared what I must believe. I have tested the Word of God in many ways, so has the World. This series of letters, books and prophecies has been poked and prodded since the first word of it was written down and it has yet to ever be shown to be in error or to fail. I will endevour to submit my thinking to it always.
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.I have moved a portion of a comment by our newer visitor to this thread so as to start the conversation.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
20 comments:
This comment is a quote from Michele in another thread. The context is about how she has come to be involved with and at least partially aligned with advocates of the Crossless Gospel.
I quote;
I understand that I have made myself very forward. But so far no one has told me to back off. It is not easy to do personally so I have not as of yet volunteered myself to the task. But I am willing, if the request is made.
In this particular case, I believe it was a mistake to think me dishonest.
May I make a case for myself? (--thank you--)
I can prove my honesty by four realms:
First, scripture, chronologically it was first but also it has the greatest import and influence, for me
Second, testimony, I've seen it's sanctioned in my own life
Third, experience in ministry, many people have shared the reality of a fact-disregarding nature to their salvation
Four, evidence of having surrendered all, both behavior and (where applicable) interpretation of scripture
I invite you to dispute the first three of these as deception on my part. That I expect, nay, desire. Could I have been made more full of reasons to think this gospel, God's?? Is there anything more He could have added to that list? I don't know, but I can't think of anything. What I do want to show you is that I have every reason to be confident. If you want to save me from my error, these realms are where I am at. How can I bridge the gap if I can't see how I could do so? Must I just take it on your word, that I am holding a place of heresy? Should man's word be my confidence? No -- I need the things you are confident in. You must therefore share them with me.
Be proud of me, as someone yourself who said they had to find the truth despite all the voices around them, to find it in the Word of God, that I have at least done that same thing myself! I'm not saying be proud where I have some error, but praise God with me that the only way to end up holding a free grace position, I think, happens by abandoning the Christian culture and intellectual heritage around us, and reading the Word alone. You have *that kind* of confidence, that *quality* of assurance. I'm no theologian, far, far from it. But allow me room to be confident reminiscent of the manner in which all of you are.
I haven't borrowed anything from anybody. I love God's Word. I think I prove it. I am willing to continue to prove it.
I'm not afraid of any man. What I fear, is God. And so how can I not be compelled to come to my "adversaries" and submit myself? It is a picture of Christ and I am honored to obey Him in this way.
You have made it very difficult on me in the portion that you and others have not received me. How tempting it is to be consoled by the other side, the side where I more or less belong. I still hold out. But I don't know how much or how long I can do so. I do not receive any encouragement to be here from those who believe roughly as I do. I was told in one point of contact with a crossless person that it would not bring benefit, that it was not a good idea. I am here only because I believe in this work and I have no other consolation.
I realize that you and your associates have most recently lost some people to the crossless position after much discussion. I am sure that hurts, honestly. You might be reconciled to think, "what's it matter if we lose one more?" But I am my own person. I want as big a chance as they got.
Thank you for listening, Michele
Michele, I hope you don't mind that I've copied this post into a position that makes more sense for the conversation.
I do not wish to come against your character. It does not validate the message. The only thing that can validate the message is it's fidelity with Scripture.
Consoling may feel good for a season but it will bring no reward in Heaven. Be not aligned with people, be aligned with Our First Love.
I can encourage you to participate with Scripture and edification, but I ask you not to link to websites that will promote the Crossless Gospel. You can make your case but do not appeal to authority. I will not appeal to authority either.. and I ask all guests to do the same.
Kev
With all of that said. The Apostle declares The Gospel that saves in I Cor 15:1-11. He indicates that if this message is received it saves. He also confirms and closes the content of the message in Verse 11 - so we preached, so you believed.
It is this message, and their reception of it that gives Paul the confidence to declare these were Eternally Saved in Verses 1-2.
In the end after all the clever arguments on both sides of this issue it comes down to this. The Apostle of Jesus Christ declares what must be "received" to be saved. I can not argue with him.
Kev
Kev,
The following verses show that the Gospel Paul and the rest of the Apostles preached is indeed the Good News of eternal salvation: Rom. 1:16, 2:16; 1 Cor. 15:1, 11 (cf. Acts 18:8); Eph. 1:13; 2 Thess. 1:8-9.
JP
Kev,
For those interested, I've written an article discussing the content of Paul's glorious Gospel of salvation. Please read The Tragedy of the Groundless Gospel, Pt. 4: The Content of the Glorious Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15
JP
Kevin,
Thank you!
(that deserved its own post)
Kevin,
You said:
"I do not wish to come against your character. It does not validate the message. The only thing that can validate the message is it's fidelity with Scripture. "
Thank you, exactly! Performance is not a accurate determiner of correct theology.
No I don't mind at all, I am grateful receiving the opportunity.
You said:
"Consoling may feel good for a season but it will bring no reward in Heaven. Be not aligned with people, be aligned with Our First Love.
I can encourage you to participate with Scripture and edification, but I ask you not to link to websites that will promote the Crossless Gospel. You can make your case but do not appeal to authority. I will not appeal to authority either.. and I ask all guests to do the same."
I... am not quite sure I understand what you mean in all these things. I think I get it, but, I don't have all the cultural background most have. I don't spend time talking much with Christians. As for fidelity to the truth, popularity does not stir me. That should be an easy observation when you think about the groups I'm drawn to... including here.
Thank you for your patience, I know your time is limited.
As for 1 cor 15, "so we preached and so you believed," could be true for sanctification as well as justification. Can you provide evidence that 1 cor 15 can only be addressing justification?
I'm going to look into Paul's use of the word gospel in the earlier part of the book. If you get there ahead of me I won't mind.
Thanks, Michele
Hi Michele,
I wrote an article on 1 Corinthians 15 that may help answering your questions. Please read Paul's Gospel Is More Than "Faith Alone In Christ Alone"
JP
Hello Michele,
I'm glad you're ok with the thread movement.
You asked about 1 Cor 15:1-11 being about Justification or Sanctification. It's actually both. Paul declares that reception results in being "saved" and that we "stand" in this.
1 Cor 15:1-2
But it is also clear that he is dealing with their sanctification - unless you believed in vain - if you hold fast. He's not talking about their performance there but their continued agreement that what they received before is actually true. He's not saying they would loose their salvation (or not have gained it in the first place) but that what they are questioning things now that they had previously received.
They were questioning the Resurrection. Paul declares that they are saved and they stand in this message so it is their Sanctification that he is dealing with as he reminds them of the message that reception results in Justification.
Hope I explained that better than I think I did....
Kev
Hey JP,
I'm particularly moved by the connection between Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:14-17
Kev
Hi JP and Kevin,
Thank you again for the opportunity you are giving.
JP, I'm sorry that the thread we were already having at your blog is somehow ending up over here. I am reading your article and want to talk about it.
I was reading the whole first half of 1 cor. Chapters 1-5 center on the topic of defining the difference between Apollos' words, Paul's words, and the words of the world.
My mind is drawing a blank, can you remember where it says that Apollos was eloquent -- and that the people liked him for it?
Kevin, I want to look into rom 10 and eph 1.
Right now I am dealing with my middle born's first day of preschool. Getting the schedule ironed out. I will be back here with more substantial conversation a little later. I also plan to leave another comment under the post "thoughts on moderation."
Michele
Hi Kev,
Ephesians 1:13 and Romans 10:14-17 make excellent cross references. I made a note in my Bible.
Michele, good question about Apollos. I was thinking Acts or Hebrews, but I had to look it up. It's Acts 18:24: "Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures."
Also, I've just written a new blog post running with the question: "Is 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ' Definable?" Please read What Is Paul's Gospel?
JP
Oh! you linked it already.
Cool :)
Kev
Hi JP and Kevin, this is just so great.
BTW I said above that I wasn't sure I understood Kevin's reply, but I do now, I reread it and realized he was using the words I had, "consolation," etc. Disregard.
I looked into Ephesians, it does parallel with Rom 10.
I looked at the four uses of the word "gospel" in ephesians and they are all 2098. My latest understanding of the difference between 2098 and 2097 is that 2098 refers to the entire collection of stories about Jesus' life and His sayings. For example, they call them the "gospel" of Mark and the "gospel" of John. That's how the word is used, in fact I see the 2098 gospel being used in tandem with or in a way reminiscent of the term "Word." Or perhaps, philosophical. So I definitely get that feel about 2098. Let me give you evidence of the abstract usage of 2098 in four locations:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%202:16;%20rom%2016:25;%201%20pet%201:25;%20Col%201:5;&version=50;
Blue Letter Bible doesn't give a whole list at once of the greek usage like my exhaustive Strong's textbook. What's more they even contradict in at least one location (but I'll deal with that if we get to that). Here's the neat list I hand typed for my blog awhile ago:
Nevermind, it's just so long. Can I make a link to the list? (It's just the list, not an assertion of doctrine in that post.)
As for Ephesians 1:13, it is the one instance I remember examining that does not follow my theory of the difference between the two versions of the word. My theory says that when it comes to salvation or the beginning exposures and verbific-accomplishments of the Word of God, it will be 2097, and when it is referring to any teaching about Jesus that sanctifies it is 2098. This one example... proves my construction false. Or at least it is not arrived yet.
Ephesians 1:13 says to my ears, according to my understanding of gospel, "You were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the (entire collection of the sayings and life of Jesus) of your salvation."
But that proves your position, not mine. So I need to adjust the concept apparently. Just being honest.
Michele
JP, I have no desire to put off all the hard work you have already made available. I have noticed it at your site and I could have invested in to it anywhere along the way, but didn't take that opportunity. I have actually read the first link (where we were previously discussing) and have several comments on the whole piece, but this comment format is messy.
Could you ask me one or two or three questions at a time or let me or a combination? It'd be easier.
Michele
Kevin and JP,
I should understand before this begins what you think the gospel is and is not.
You think that only 1 cor 15 describes the gospel. And that it leaves nothing out, nor could anything be left out or even arranged in a different order of significance, than as it is found?
So every other place in scripture, such as perhaps Rom 10, you think is merely a partial reference to the whole content here in this one and only passage. Is that your construct when reading?
If it is one passage alone, and no other is sufficiently acceptable as an alternate of describing the "gospel that saves", except 1 cor 15, in the entire bible... then my work, and your work is this: to begin in 1 cor 14 and 1 cor 16, and work our way radially outward in context, from that point.
I mean, if I make the assumption that 1 cor 15 is all there is, by itself it might be made to be nothing more than a proof text. That is the unfortunate weakness of only having one passage to answer a question.
Edit my understanding so that I'm on the same page.
Michele
Hi All,
I know this conversation was just getting interesting... but I've decided to take what I was going to use as an answer for Michele and post it as an article. It was nearly 5 pages long printed... so I didn't think that would work to well as comment.
Read it here at Proof-Texting The Gospel?
Michele, this ought to be a fairly exhaustive answer to your questions and concerns.
Kev
Hi Kevin,
I read your comment at Lou's blog and I think I'll respond to it at mine.
You said in one of these articles and comments that these were "first things." I want to affirm and agree with you. Paul calls them first things because that is indeed what they are. If we have the opportunity to talk about what Jesus did with someone, this is what should be shared.
Just wanted to let you know that I am listening and thinking about your pov, and, that I agree with you on many things which I don't bother to take the time to assure you on, but doing so is perhaps even more important than discussing our potential disagreements.
Thanks, Michele
Kevin,
Sorry that I didn't get back, but, if you feel led to go elsewhere how can I fault it? Of course I want you to obey God if that means you don't talk on certain days or at all or whatever the Spirit allows you. I am confident that if I seek the LORD I will find Him, and it would be nice to have some communication with others about it, but often me having questions means I get stuck trying to figure it out on my own, which is sometimes superior even if it's not preferable at the time.
God bless you, Michele
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