tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-169631522024-03-07T02:30:16.883-04:00On My Walkon my walk toward CHRISTKevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comBlogger706125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-86237476948471311062015-08-17T13:20:00.001-03:002015-08-17T13:20:07.908-03:00The Lordship Salvation Controversy in 2015<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiO255xN2ZrC8PNIIWiwxRy2CTJwoPx9zbvR2U1y7k8k_UQ8h9hFYO6EoZRgk1I6dR-5-WkOwXUx3NOlZtSe3e20oM5Jypxhcxn6Ctjr5cVx1c7Vss7uNosCDDLvev-avAhEVo69Q/s1600/TransWashroomSign.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiO255xN2ZrC8PNIIWiwxRy2CTJwoPx9zbvR2U1y7k8k_UQ8h9hFYO6EoZRgk1I6dR-5-WkOwXUx3NOlZtSe3e20oM5Jypxhcxn6Ctjr5cVx1c7Vss7uNosCDDLvev-avAhEVo69Q/s320/TransWashroomSign.jpg" width="319" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">This is the reality of the world we live in today.<br />It is also the reality of the doctrines of Christendom.</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
It is 2015 and that means it has been 27 years since John MacArthur put Lordship Salvation on the discussion table in earnest with his book The Gospel According to Jesus in 1988. Some years ago after I decided to discuss my walk toward Christ here at OMW this controversy became a point of primary interest to me.<br /><br />As the years have progressed my focus has been more toward the Gospel than the various controversies surrounding it. This being true lately my heart has been being tugged to discuss where we are in 2015 with regard to the Lordship Salvation controversy.<br /><br />In the world, that is the world system which is dictated by the Kingdom of the Prince of the Power of the Air, which is ruled by the god of this age Satan himself, tolerance of everything except fidelity is law. We shouldn't be surprised by this.<br /><br />Tolerating sinners of any kind as they live in the world is something we are supposed to do. We are to plead with sinners to be converted, not try to force them to act like they have been.<br /><br /><b>1Cor 5:6-13</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px; margin-top: 1em;">
<b><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000;"><span class="text 1Cor-5-6" id="en-DARBY-28458" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">6 </span>Your boasting [is] not good. Do ye not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? </span></span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">7 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened. For also our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed; </span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">8 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">so that let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth. </span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">9 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">I have written to you in the epistle not to mix with fornicators; </span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">10 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the avaricious and rapacious, or idolaters, since [then] ye should go out of the world. </span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">11 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">But now I have written to you, if any one called brother be fornicator, or avaricious, or idolater, or abusive, or a drunkard, or rapacious, not to mix with [him]; with such a one not even to eat. </span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">12 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">For what have *I* [to do] with judging those outside also? *ye*, do not ye judge them that are within? </span><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">13 </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">But those without God judges. Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>
We are not to allow sin in the assembly. We are not to tolerate it. However we are to expect it in the world. We are not given pass to take part, but we are told not to judge those outside of the Church which is His Body.<br /><br />In society today "Christianity" has been subverted to be some organization of people who are "against" various things and various people. It ought not be so. No one should be "for" a sinner more than one who has been forgiven of great sin.<br /><br /><b>Luke 7:47</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">47 </span><span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;">For which cause I say to thee, Her many sins are forgiven; for she loved much; but he to whom little is forgiven loves little.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
In 2015 Lordship Salvation is adding to this perversion of Christianity by making lists of people who "cannot be saved" or who "cannot be a Christian." Whether intentionally or not the message received by the world is that Christianity is for people who think they are good. Most often the Lordship Salvation proponent is talking about people who say they are saved but are still committing some kind of high profile or highly distasteful sin, but that is not the message the world gets because the world doesn't recognize the reality of being Born Again. They think Christianity is a club you can join, and if you can't be in the club as a XYZ type of sinner then XYZ types of sinners can't join...<br /><br />There is only one kind of sinner who cannot be saved and that is kind who persists in rejecting Christ until they die in their sins. <br /><br />None of this is all that new. Lordship Salvation proponents have been making lists and preaching various versions of their false gospel for a long time now. How ever in 2015 the problem is that Christendom is acting like the world even more than we ever have in the past. Metaphorically, we put up signs like one above. All doctrines are welcome they all have equal value and should have equal access to the minds of the Believers.<br /><br />Oh there are lists of taboo preachers but if you're on Facebook you'll see all the doctrines of all these taboo preachers get spread through Christendom no matter if the preachers of the doctrines are singled out for mocking or not.<br /><br />Largely whatever that is said from the pulpit, so long as it is encouraging in some vague way, is accepted. This is again nothing new, but this post is about the Lordship Salvation controversy but in 2015 there is little or no controversy. In 2010 it was raging on all fronts, but in 2015 the controversy is "Oh well I understand... I think XYZ preacher is pretty good. I don't concern myself with the finer details that only lead to arguments. I just want to love people." <br /><br /><b>Titus 1:10-11</b><br /><blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i style="font-family: inherit; line-height: 24px;"><b><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Titus-1-10" id="en-DARBY-29900" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; color: #660000;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">10 </span>For there are many and disorderly vain speakers and deceivers of people's minds, specially those of [the] circumcision, </span><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">11 </span>who must have their mouths stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which ought not [to be taught] for the sake of base gain.</span></span></b></i></blockquote>
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All is not lost however. There are still learned Believers who are not giving in and letting the Church sleep.<br /><br />We are not to judge sinners in the world, we are told to warn them of the judgment to come and to preach to them the good news of Jesus Christ. Out in the world it is the wild west, but in the Church we are to be orderly. We are not to match the world. We are a called out people.<br /><br />In the case of Lordship Salvation we have to demonstrate this "called out people" aspect by rejecting every doctrine except for that which is true. We have failed at this and the scary thing is that people aren't even offended when I bring the subject up any more - they just don't care about those kinds of things.<br /><br />You know those kinds of things like The Gospel by which we are saved.<br /><br /><b>1Cor 15:1-11</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px; margin-top: 1em;">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000;"><span class="text 1Cor-15-1" id="en-DARBY-28717" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;">1 But I make known to you, brethren, the glad tidings which I announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand,</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-2" id="en-DARBY-28718" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">2 </span>by which also ye are saved, (if ye hold fast the word which I announced to you as the glad tidings,) unless indeed ye have believed in vain.</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-3" id="en-DARBY-28719" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">3 </span>For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures;</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-4" id="en-DARBY-28720" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">4 </span>and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures;</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-5" id="en-DARBY-28721" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">5 </span>and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-6" id="en-DARBY-28722" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">6 </span>Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep.</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-7" id="en-DARBY-28723" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">7 </span>Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles;</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-8" id="en-DARBY-28724" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">8 </span>and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to *me* also.</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-9" id="en-DARBY-28725" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">9 </span>For *I* am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God.</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-10" id="en-DARBY-28726" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">10 </span>But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which [was] towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not *I*, but the grace of God which [was] with me.</span></b></span><span class="text 1Cor-15-11" id="en-DARBY-28727" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 12px; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">11 </span>Whether, therefore, I or they, thus we preach, and thus ye have believed.</span></b></span></span></i></blockquote>
<br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-76231022800655128482015-07-02T23:36:00.000-03:002015-07-02T23:36:15.617-03:00Revisiting the Lordship Salvation controversy.I am reading a brand new book on the subject now. I think it is time to revisit the topic and talk about where we are now. As is clear I have had a hard time finding topics to write about that matter to me and others.<br />
<br />
This book is helping me realize that the issue has changed and perhaps become more dangerous.<br />
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Also it is becoming clear that the tide is changing quickly in North America and soon Evangelism will be treated as a crime. More on this subject soon.Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-16178173273105991262015-03-03T18:30:00.002-04:002015-03-03T18:30:52.626-04:00Popular Disbelief - Pt 1 - Introduction<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQ5XaA0BLu0Zji7NwW48mREQKAfZOlNCKUjKvaSll3xRwz-sD0wRgiPrOf2okyhpfvr9xsrLaxnm-0Wk2IkedWmOBgIgR5twayedW3qoTktW68XgxkfrU2FByxz7H-38La8ihEBA/s1600/PopularDisbelief.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQ5XaA0BLu0Zji7NwW48mREQKAfZOlNCKUjKvaSll3xRwz-sD0wRgiPrOf2okyhpfvr9xsrLaxnm-0Wk2IkedWmOBgIgR5twayedW3qoTktW68XgxkfrU2FByxz7H-38La8ihEBA/s1600/PopularDisbelief.jpg" /></span></a><span style="font-family: inherit;">Welcome to the introduction of a new series of articles entitled <b><i>"Popular Disbelief."</i></b> Right now this is intended to be a brief review of <b><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Why-Believed-Reflections-Former-Missionary-ebook/dp/B003UNLMRY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425393930&sr=8-1&keywords=Why+I+believed" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary</a></b> by Kenneth W. Daniels. However, I like the title "Popular Disbelief" and perhaps it may be expanded to deal with other atheistic arguments as well. So who knows? I could be back to writing consistently again.<br /><br /><b>Please Note: </b>You'll find an index of each of the articles in this multi-article review linked at the bottom of this article. They'll be added here as they are published.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">As per normal with my reviews, answerers, or generic articles I want to offer some disclosures so you know where I am, and where I am not, coming from.</span><br />
<br />
<ol>
<li><span style="font-family: inherit;">I have not read the entire book. I will explain this later in this article.</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family: inherit;">I have skipped over parts to get to more important parts.</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family: inherit;">I have gone back and read parts that the people who suggested the book to me thought were of particular importance and/or were particularly convincing to them.</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family: inherit;">If there is something in the book which I do not cover in this series and you want me to look at it because you believe it is of particular importance or convincing then I will go back and look at it. I won't necessarily answer all suggestions with my own writing. I will most likely link to other resources which already offer information on the subjects of interest to you. If you want me to comment on everything in the book I will simply ignore you because after a few light meals I get tired of feeding the trolls.</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family: inherit;">I believe the Bible in full. I am not an expert on every part of it, but I have critically examined enough of it over the years in order to be completely comfortable with trusting what it says everywhere about everything, as it says it not how I would like to read it. I was an Avionics Technician in the Canadian Forces for 20 years. I am a subject matter expert in air deployed SONAR and RADAR systems including system diagnostics and component level repair and design. I also have extensive experience diagnosing and maintaining communications, navigation, and sensor systems. During my years in the military I served on land, in the air, and at sea on two different naval vessels with Helicopter Air Detachments embarked. I'm telling you this so you know that I am used to people's lives hanging in the balance on my interpretation of and attention to detail. I don't believe the Bible because someone told me to, or because it was comfortable; <b>I believe the Bible because the Bible is true.</b></span></li>
</ol>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">If you think that anything disclosed above means that I am incapable of reviewing and answering this work and intend on ignoring what I do answer with criticisms related to the things disclosed then I suggest you do one of two things: either follow what I suggest in disclosure 4, or just ignore this series of articles.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Oh one more disclosure before we get started:</b> I love you in Christ. I really do. This doesn't mean I'm going to be all soft and cuddly making sure not to offend you. It does mean I'm not going to try to offend you, and I'm going to try my very best to offer you truth. I will do my very best to respect you, and Mr. Daniels while being honest about what is in the book, what isn't in the book, and what I believe the implications of these things are. So if you troll me, I'm going to call you a <b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">troll</a> </b>but I'm not going to call you a troll just to avoid a point you want to make. Fair? I think so. If you do too then let's get started.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgBAQYlO6iNCobqsC0B7QRkCxvEP6xK5XGjlM2KHp15t0UE3o2Gyhbc5_4htIpDhd3CFMpjLkDqYAVeNsLHEDg2cpJmLcT-YzPvu137qoRn_QYqswTxO3GtD316Plv2igwuJQHxTg/s1600/whyibelieved.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgBAQYlO6iNCobqsC0B7QRkCxvEP6xK5XGjlM2KHp15t0UE3o2Gyhbc5_4htIpDhd3CFMpjLkDqYAVeNsLHEDg2cpJmLcT-YzPvu137qoRn_QYqswTxO3GtD316Plv2igwuJQHxTg/s1600/whyibelieved.jpg" height="200" width="133" /></span></a></div>
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<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>2Cor 4:3-3 </b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b></b><span style="color: #660000;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text 2Cor-4-3" id="en-NKJV-28863" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">3 </span>But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text 2Cor-4-4" id="en-NKJV-28864" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">4 </span>whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.</span></i></b></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i>Why I Believed</i></b> is a tale of a man who went from suffering under the unwise practices of those he allowed to lead him unto the madness of the popular blind disbelief (Atheism) as he submitted to other men to suffer under their unwise practices.<br /><br />In this introduction to the series we will look at the goal he had for the book, his path to missions, and if he was saved or not.</span><br />
<h2>
<b><u><span style="font-family: inherit;">The Goal of Why I Believed</span></u></b></h2>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />We can sum up the goal of his book with two quotes. </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;">"Most believers are not prepared to travel as far as I have from my former position as a fundamentalist believer. I implore such readers to consider a middle ground, one that acknowledges both the virtues and the vices of the scriptures, as millions of moderate and liberal believers already do." </span></i></blockquote>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">He then goes on to discuss the evils practiced by some of the Muslim religion implying how they are a point of agreement for us all about fundamentalism and are as such a reason to reject belief in the Bible.<br /><br />Again equating Christianity with the evil practiced by some people of Islam he writes: </span><br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Likewise, the world would be a better place if fundamentalist Christians could frankly acknowledge the good, the bad, and the ugly in their own scriptural tradition, whether or not they end up abandoning the faith outright."</span></i> </span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">He also notes that one of his primary reasons for writing the book is that he doesn't want people to think he is "on the road to eternal damnation" if he doesn't repent. Almost every complaint in the book is just short of an argument. Instead of arguing points completely he attempts to sow seeds of doubt by presenting ideas instead of actual evidence. </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Ecc 1:9 </b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b></b><b><i><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="text Eccl-1-9" id="en-NKJV-17325" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px; position: relative;">That which has been <span style="box-sizing: border-box;">is</span> what will be,</span></span></i></b><b><i><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="text Eccl-1-9" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px; position: relative;">That which <span style="box-sizing: border-box;">is</span> done is what will be done,</span></span></i></b><b><i><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="text Eccl-1-9" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px; position: relative;">And <span style="box-sizing: border-box;">there is</span> nothing new under the sun.</span></span></i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">The Father of Lies once appealed to our flesh with the words <i><span style="color: #660000;"><b>"Has God indeed said..."</b></span></i> <b>Gen 3:1</b> and in response we surrendered to our desire to please ourselves and disbelieve God. Our imagination took over and filled in the blanks and we acted as though the story we made up in our minds was true and we have suffered the consequences ever since. Some 6,000 years later the Enemy of Our Souls is still playing the same game and we still willingly fall for it.<br /><br />Mr. Daniels tells his story of weak roots being torn out by continual acceptance of every wind of doctrine that came his way and this is exactly what he suggests that you and I do as well. <b>Eph 4:14</b></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">I, in opposition to Mr. Daniels' suggestion, encourage you to critically examine all things and hold fast that which is good. <b>1Thes 5:21 </b>By this I mean whole heartedly test the Scriptures, and everything else you run into. Throw out what is untrue and hold unwaveringly to that which is true. I don't want you to just doubt, or hold things loosely.<b> I want you to know what is true and what isn't - because you can.</b></span><br />
<h2>
<b><u><span style="font-family: inherit;">His Path to Missions</span></u></b></h2>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Ecc 10:16</b><br /><b><i><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;">Woe to you, O land, when your king </span><span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;">is</span></span><span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"> a child</span></span></span></i></b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>1st Tim 3</b><br /><b><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000;"><span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;">not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the </span><span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;">same</span></span></i></b><span style="font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px;"><b><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000;"> condemnation as the devil.</span></i></b></span></span></blockquote>
<br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Mr. Daniels was sent into and decided to go into full time missions work when he was still a child of a man and completely unstable in his faith. Here is a series of quotes that show his path into missions work.</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Like many believers, I was aware of puzzles in the Christian faith even in my youth."</span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Theologically I became inclined to call myself an "evangelical ecumenicist," focusing on what united the evangelical faith and not taking strong stands on points of disagreement."</span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"It was during my junior year of college that I began paying attention to difficult passages in the Old Testament in my personal readings, some that troubled me for ethical reasons, and others that seemed to be internally contradictory." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I became and avid reader of Christianity Today... the magazine staff accepted the earth's great antiquity while rejecting evolution." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"My personal study of the Bible again led me to the conclusion that it contained errors and probably not divinely inspired. However I had already signed up for a one-year certificate program a Columbia Biblical Seminary..." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The following summer... I visited a Unitarian Universalist church as a seeker. I asked one of the leaders whether he believed God listens to prayer. He said he'd like to think God is out there somewhere listening when we pray but he wasn't sure." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"About three months into my seminary studies... and having read the no-nonsense nineteenth-century apologetic work An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible (Haley 1876), my confidence in the reliability of the Bible was restored." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Following my year of seminary I moved back to my parents' house... I met my beautiful wife...on June 30, 1991"</span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We began a wonderful romance, helped by the Sunday school superintendent who asked us to teach the junior high Sunday school class together." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We married in June of 1992 and lived in northern Minnesota for a year together before joining Wycliffe Bible Translators." </span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;">"The ensuing years involved in retrospective an almost insane flurry of activity. By 1999, seven years into our marriage, we had lived in 18 places for one month or longer in six different countries. In our first eleven years of marriage, the longest we lived in one residence was 18 months." </span></i></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">What we see here is the story of how a young man who was not grounded in truth but continually rocked one way or the other by argumentation (either for or against the Scriptures) was thrust into marriage and ministry even though he was wholly unprepared. </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>John 15:5 </b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b></b><b><span style="color: #660000;"><i><span class="woj" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;">I am the vine, you <span style="box-sizing: border-box;">are</span> the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.</span><span style="line-height: 24px;"> </span></i></span></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Abiding is restful. The branch does not strain or rush to produce fruit. It grows there, sometimes imperceptibly to the branch, without effort at all; growing solely from that which is supplied by the vine.<br /><br />I cannot quote his entire testimony but <b><i>Why I Believed</i></b> reveals how Mr. Daniels never took the chance to truly evaluate the Scriptures and come to a clear, settled decision. He had, by his own accounts, an unstable faith which he forced himself to hold in spite of what he was becoming convinced of. If one reads the book one will see clearly that Mr. Daniels never based his faith in God on a reasoned examination of the Scriptures, Creation, or anything else; it was always a vacuumous belief that came by proxy not repentance. We will likely look at this further in later articles and we will also discover how his rejection of God is also a vacuumous faith based decision. From his faith in the Bible to his faith in the atheistic arguments he has adopted the final position that was decided upon prior to the investigation being conducted.</span><br />
<h2>
<u><b><span style="font-family: inherit;">Was(Is) Mr. Daniels Saved?</span></b></u></h2>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Eph 1:13-14 </b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b></b><b><span style="color: #660000;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Eph-1-13" id="en-NKJV-29220" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">13 </span>In Him you also <span style="box-sizing: border-box;">trusted,</span> after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text Eph-1-14" id="en-NKJV-29221" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">14 </span>who<span class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NKJV-29221b" data-link="[<a href="#fen-NKJV-29221b" title="See footnote b">b</a>]" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">[</span> is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.</span></i></span></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Let's get down to brass tacks shall we? This is the question on everyone's mind. Was Mr. Daniels the real deal or not? Here are some quotes of his reaction to a form of this question (and related discussion), if not exactly the question of whether he was saved or not. </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I have been told that if I had embraced a slightly different brand of Christianity, I could have avoided coming down this path."</span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"...one whose life was formerly defined for decades by his commitment to Jesus..."</span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"If you are convinced your faith is the only thing keeping you from a life of profligacy, murder, rape, and pillaging, then please read no further; the world already has enough of that to go around."</span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I was able to regain what I considered to be a full-fledged, robust biblical faith. Though we dated for ten months, we never kissed, wanting to reserve that privilege for marriage!" </span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I recall a discussion with a Christian friend who expressed doubt that I was ever a true believer to begin with. Though it was apparent neither to me nor to my family, friends, church, or mission organization, it is in theory possible that I was never a true believer." </span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Might you not consider yourself to be a believer and to have a dynamic relationship with God, only to find yourself years later leaving the faith and being told you were never a believer sin the first place?"</span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I was a Christian (rather than, for example, a Muslim or a Hindu) because my family and society had influenced me to accept Christianity(rather than Islam or Hinduism.)" </span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"As a believer I was reluctant to admit that my decision to follow Christ was anyone's but my own."</span></i></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;"></span></i></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I am convinced that the influence of other believers is likely the primary reason for which most Christians are Christians, as opposed to Hindus or Buddhists or Muslims." </span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">This and other similar statements are Mr. Daniels' confession of his faith. He is called in the introduction of the book, and he calls himself repeatedly a "former Fundamentalist." Yet we are given no definition of what a Fundamentalist is or was. It is suggested that it is part of the foundation on which the Homeschool Movement is built on along with the doctrines of Protestantism, young earth creationism, and biblical inerrancy... but is never defined. With the exception of at one point having rejected Evolution while believing in a young Earth creation model I can find no confessions of the "fundamental" beliefs of biblical Christianity. Perhaps it is intentional to cause argument, but no Fundamentalist would ever seek to convince someone they were a Fundamentalist through the use of the Rosary found on the cover of Mr. Daniels' book.<br /><br />The two most striking things about his confessions of his former faith is how he believed because the community he was in believed, and the complete absence of repentance and faith in Christ crucified for Mr. Daniels' own sins, having been buried and risen again the third day all in accordance with the Scriptures. There is no confession that I have found in this book where Mr. Daniels says he repented and believed the Gospel as found in the Scriptures. <b>1Cor 15:1-11 </b></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><br /></b></span>
<b><i>Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary</i></b> isn't an influential dangerous testimony that is any threat to faith in the Bible or Christ, it is a religious tragedy. A young struggling man fell prey to those who loved what he could do for their work more than they loved him. That's all this story is.<br />
<br />
I have written at length about salvation at this blog so I will not get into it all here. It is clear from Mr. Daniels' own testimony that he never personally repented and believed the Gospel. If you want to know how I can be so sure, it is based on the clear testimony of Scripture on the subject. Please visit the links on the right of this page under "Salvation" and my full detailed <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/p/the-doctrine-of-salvation-soteriology.html" target="_blank">Soteriology (Doctrine of Salvation)</a></i></b> for a detailed discussion on the topic.<br />
<br />
Before you consider accusing me of the No True Scotsman Logical Fallacy because I do not believe that Mr. Daniels has ever been saved you should read how even the Atheism proponents define the fallacy <a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman" rel="nofollow" style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;" target="_blank">HERE</a>(rational wiki).<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">"<b style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 19.2000007629395px;">No True Scotsman</b><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 19.2000007629395px;"> is a </span><a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: none; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 19.2000007629395px; text-decoration: none;" title="Logical fallacy">logical fallacy</a><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 19.2000007629395px;"> by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no </span><i style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 19.2000007629395px;">true</i><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8000001907349px; line-height: 19.2000007629395px;"> member of the group they belong to would do such a thing; this fallacy also applies to defining a term or criteria biasedly as to defend it from counterargument which can be identified as a biased, persuasive, or rhetorical definition. "</span></span></blockquote>
<br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">It is not a fallacy to say that Gold is not Silver. It is not a fallacy to say that someone who has not repented and believed the Gospel (1Cor 15:1-11) for their own reconciliation to God is not, and has never been, a Christian; no matter what they call themselves. I can call myself a Dentist all I want. I may have read lots of books about Dentistry, and I might have even worked in the field but if I am not a Dentist I am not a Dentist.</span><br />
<h2>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><u>In Closing to Part 1</u></b></span></h2>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">I haven't read the whole book, nor will I. It is a work written to those who are "Cultural Christians" that is people who have never really investigated the Scriptures themselves but like to go to Church and love the people they go there with no matter if what they are doing makes sense or is based on truth or not. As such, the work has contempt for the Reader. Sometimes this contempt manifests openly, but more often it manifests in the open assumption that the Reader doesn't have a clue what the Bible says or what the Scientific Method can or has revealed. Lots of books are written by authors who just expect the Reader to go along with them. The author of this book seems assume the Reader is stupid. I didn't find this overly offensive, but I did find it tiresome. Especially when many of the arguments (half) presented were </span>sophomoric<span style="font-family: inherit;"> at best. </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i>"That said, all views expressed in this manuscript are my own, and I take responsibility for any errors."</i></span></blockquote>
I can only take Mr. Daniels at his word. So, based on the confession in this book I can only discern that he was never a Christian because he never repented for himself. I cannot say outright that he is not saved, because he may have simply left this out of the book (for whatever reason). However, if I take him at his word I have no reason to consider that he is saved, and therefore I have no reason to think he was ever a Christian.<br />
<br />
Because of his not being grounded and not being saved his religion was always all over the place. He had no willingness to reject anyone's position on anything because, even though he claimed the title Fundamentalist, he never had a solid, defined, and grounded position on anything. Yet those around him embraced his acceptance of the "Christian" culture and decided this made him "one of us" and put him to work in ministry and immediately into missions work. It was a recipe for disaster and that is exactly what happened. <br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Thanks for reading this introduction! Next time we'll be discussing the Concerns that Mr. Daniels has which have driven him to write this work. </span><br />
<br />
<h2>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Popular Disbelief - Why I Believed - Series Index of Articles</span></h2>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /><b><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2015/03/popular-disbelief-pt-1-introduction.html" target="_blank">Part 1 - Introduction</a></b> (Goals of the book, Mr. Daniels' path to missions, Was Mr. Daniels saved?)</span>Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-48302164186945921422014-09-10T14:20:00.000-03:002014-09-10T14:20:23.296-03:00Q1 The God Who Is vs The God We Might Think Would<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhnVrqfEs5EK99PmkEDSr3TQhSGIaGkqrvriOKShJn8uscMk8PSuTdT9_Lh7xo3rM0vrUM3nsbdsAJthc4lviMxTPkU-OASOKatLPneyHFNKvsc2visKT7OVPBGdRkxgQgfRuBwCg/s1600/GodWeWantVsGodWhoIs_crop.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhnVrqfEs5EK99PmkEDSr3TQhSGIaGkqrvriOKShJn8uscMk8PSuTdT9_Lh7xo3rM0vrUM3nsbdsAJthc4lviMxTPkU-OASOKatLPneyHFNKvsc2visKT7OVPBGdRkxgQgfRuBwCg/s1600/GodWeWantVsGodWhoIs_crop.jpg" height="320" width="213" /></a></div>
<b>10 Sincere Questions.</b><br />
<br />
<a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2014/09/10-sincere-questions-from-those-who-do.html" target="_blank"><i>Please see the series introduction here.</i></a><br />
<br />
Question 1:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Why would a truly all-encompassing, all-powerful, capital-G god need to condescend to hatching a scheme to get himself sacrificed in the form of a man in order to "forgive" humanity? It seems to me that these are the actions of a lowercase-g god.</span></span></span></i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">If G</span></span><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">od really had the need to see the sins of humanity "placed" on himself, couldn't he have done it without playing out a strange little story here on Earth? As far as I can see, for every reason that can be given, there would be a way for God to accomplish those same ends without making himself seem so small and petty.</span></span></span></span></i></blockquote>
This question was asked by Kaelyn N. I will have to take her word for it that this is significant to her with regard to her coming to faith in Christ or rejecting Him. This is the first question anyone has posed since I have been asking for them.<br />
<br />Rejection of God is often caused by a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of God. People think of God as a fairy tale and pay attention to the details about Him with as little concern as they would about the details of a character in such a tale. Then because their fairy tale version of God doesn't make sense to their intellect they simply reject Him. This is almost always a convenient misunderstanding for the person who does not want to worship God. Sometimes it is a sincere misunderstanding which is fostered by fairy tale Christendom being so popular in the media and sadly in many church buildings. <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>1Jn 1:5</b></span><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span style="line-height: 24px;">This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is </span><span style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;">light</span><span style="line-height: 24px;"> and in Him is no </span><span style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;">darkness</span><span style="line-height: 24px;"> at all.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
<br />
Let's assume the confusion is sincere and go through it to see if there are reasonable answers available for Kaelyn. My idea here is to answer completely, but briefly. Should deeper discussion be required we can do that in comments.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Why would a truly all-encompassing, all-powerful, capital-G god need to condescend to hatching a scheme to get himself sacrificed in the form of a man in order to "forgive" humanity?</span></span></span></i></blockquote>
While God is "all-powerful" He is not "<b><i><a href="https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=define+all-encompassing" target="_blank">all-encompassing</a></i></b>" for He is light and in Him there is no darkness. (<b>1Jn 1:5</b>) it is clear from the Scriptures that He does not encompass sin or sinners or anything that is unrighteous whatsoever. What fellowship does light have with the darkness? (<b>2Cor 6:14</b>)<br />
<br />
God doesn't "need" anything. As the Creator of all things (<b>John 1</b>) He is necessarily self-sufficient. God does not "need" but He does <b><i>desire</i></b> all to be saved. (<b>1Tim 2:4; 2Pet 3:9</b>)<br />
<br />
Also God did not "hatch" anything to accomplish His desire. To "hatch" something implies, or necessitates rather, that it is a new plan which has come about within Time/History. The purpose of God that Christ would die for our sins, be buried and rise again the third day, didn't come about within Time/History. This was determined in Eternity Past - that is outside of our Space/Time Universe and logically (not actually chronologically) before Creation. (<b>Tit 1:2</b>)<br />
<br />
This was accomplished according to God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge, it was not a "scheme." (<b>Acts 2:22-24</b>) He did not "get Himself" sacrificed He in fact sacrificed Himself. (<b>Isa 53</b>) <br />
<br />
<b><i>He did however condescend to accomplish this. </i></b>The Creator of the Universe condescended to come in humility as a flesh & blood human man. He who was rich became poor so that we could become rich. (<b>2Cor 8:9</b>) This is the great enigma for religious and prideful man. What King would become a peasant for me?<br /><br />God isn't the megalomaniac of atheism fair tales. He isn't a bully or power mad. He is is morally perfect, humble, self-sacrificing, and loving.<br /><br />I'm not sure why Kaelyn puts quotations around the word forgive. It is almost as though she thinks that humans don't need to be forgiven. We were created, given life, fellowship with Holy God, and a beautiful universe to live in and take care of. Instead we wanted more. We believed a lie and thought we could make ourselves like God. We submitted to the enemy of our souls instead of to God. Adam did this in the beginning and we each do the very same thing in our own lives.<br /><br />We took was was perfect and poisoned it intentionally (<b>Gen 1-3</b>) and none of us since have done any better than Adam did. (<b>Rom 3:9-20</b>)<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">It seems to me that these are the actions of a lowercase-g god.</span></span></span></i></blockquote>
Satan wanted to make himself like the Most High because of pride. He saw God's power and thought that is what defined Him. This is the same bait that Satan gave Adam & Even in the garden. Lower case g gods, that is idols who are not gods at all, need to oppress in order to impress. People server their lower case g gods to the end of themselves. Money, lust... people give up their lives in pursuit and service to them. In the end these idols can give nothing back. All they can do is take a person's life away. God is not like them at all.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">If G</span></span><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15.3599996566772px;"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".ik.1:3:1:$comment375001029316642_377544032395675:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">od really had the need to see the sins of humanity "placed" on himself, couldn't he have done it without playing out a strange little story here on Earth? As far as I can see, for every reason that can be given, there would be a way for God to accomplish those same ends without making himself seem so small and petty.</span></span></span></span></i></blockquote>
God didn't need anything, as we have now already discussed. We need our sins placed on Someone who had no sin of their own who could pay for our sin and take it away. God knew our need, and Him fulfilling our need expresses His humble, self-sacrificing, and loving nature in a way that excludes any other from trying to pretend they are like Him. The purposes of God are accomplished by this strange story. Man is free to love or not to love, God is shown to be perfectly righteous, perfectly just, and perfectly loving. His glory is manifest for all to see and He gets to fellowship with those who will love Him not just with robots He has programmed to act like they love Him.<br /><br />The "strange little story" is a infinitely specific set of information which was foretold and accomplished exactly in accordance with that foretelling. In types, pictures, and explicitly stated the Christ was explained ahead of time so that when He came at the appointed day (yes the very day April 6th AD32) He would be unmistakeable to any who had taken the very little trouble of reading the Scriptures. Those there on that day were without excuse the same as we today are without excuse because of how clearly God has demonstrated Himself through this "strange little story."<br /><br />People call God "small and petty" because they don't understand Him, they don't understand themselves, and they don't understand sin.<br /><br />One single lie which was designed to inspire a man to desire to become more than he was already is the reason cancer kills people, the reason cars rust, the reason ALS exists, the reason why children suffer.... and so on and so on. (<b>Gen 3</b>)This just scratches the surface of why lying is atrocious. <br /><br />Lying is truly evil because Holy God, that is "Perfect God", cannot lie. Yet we lie without thinking about it. I have heard thousands of individuals tell me that "everybody lies." That's a cool phrase when Dr. House utters it on TV but it is a disgusting truth when we realize it is true of mankind who is suffering because of one single lie even today. We play in the poison that is killing us and call it normal. God cannot lie, and will have no fellowship with liars. (<b>Tit 1:2; Rev 21:8</b>)<br /><br />Do we call the local judge "small and petty" for exacting justice against murders? Liars are no better than the worst murder. Sin is evil. The wages of sin - that is what you earn for sinning - is death.<br /><br />WE NEED our sin to be born away from us. WE NEED to be saved from the just judgment of our sinful practices that we all do.<br />
<br />
How can we call the perfectly righteous God "small and petty" when He humbles Himself to pay the price we cannot pay and to do it in the complete open where all can see so that we who deserve nothing but death for our murderous ways may have life?<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Rom 5:6-11</b></span><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Rom-5-6" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">6 </span>For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text Rom-5-7" id="en-NKJV-28055" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">7 </span>For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text Rom-5-8" id="en-NKJV-28056" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">8 </span>But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text Rom-5-9" id="en-NKJV-28057" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">9 </span>Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text Rom-5-10" id="en-NKJV-28058" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">10 </span>For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. </span><span style="line-height: 24px;"></span><span class="text Rom-5-11" id="en-NKJV-28059" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px;"><span class="versenum" style="box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 22px; position: relative; top: 0px; vertical-align: top;">11 </span>And not only <span style="box-sizing: border-box;">that,</span> but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
<br />
Kaelyn the God who is, is not very much like the god that atheism argues against. He is not like the god we hear about from talking heads on CNN, or the god we hear about in popular TV shows, or even in the anti-Creation books by the most popular authors. He is however completely unique in His perfection and power - yet He condescended to become a man to WILLINGLY take on your guilt and shame, die in your place the death that you deserve in accordance with the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. (<b>1Cor 15:1-11</b>)<br /><br />This happened exactly as the Scriptures required and foretold, completely out in the open for all to see, so that you are without excuse if you reject it.<br /><br />Today is the day of salvation Kaelyn. Humble yourself. Agree with God about your sin (repent) and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ whose death on the Cross has been accepted as payment for your sins so that God would be just and the justifier of you if you believe on Him. (<b>Rom 3:21-26</b>)<br /><br />You can can perfect standing before Holy God based on what He has done, and there is no other way this could have been accomplished or ever will there be.<br />
<br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-43072074848331780352014-09-07T16:22:00.001-03:002014-09-07T16:22:25.441-03:0010 Sincere Questions From Those Who Do Not Believe in Christ the LordI'm seeking 10 questions to answer. Here is what I wrote in a Facebook group I frequent.<br /><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" style="margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
I am looking for 10 sincere questions that matter significantly from those who do not believe in Christ the Lord, Creator of everything which has been created.<br />I am not looking for debate. By entering your question you are already stating that you don't have faith in Christ, you don't have to convince me further.<br />I am also not looking for questions that don't significantly matter to you as you consider whether Christ is Lord or not.<br />As I am able I will pick 10 questions which I believe are sincere and matter to the subject for the one asking it and answer them individually.<br />I have been in the work of street evangelism since the spring of 2006 after it dawned on me that sinners were not actually attracted to Christ by clever church signs and warm handshakes at the door. These things have their place, but the command of the Great Commission is to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. In this work I have had thousands of personal conversations with people of all walks of life, from politicians and rich men, to beggars; from philosophers and science instructors to lay persons; from muslims and roman catholics to new agers. Over these years I have heard many many sincere questions, and many many more cleverly devised or adopted objections.<br />I don't know if I've "heard it all" but I've heard a lot of it.<br />As I pick these 10 questions from the submissions - should any be presented - I will be making a blog series and I will post the individual answers here as well.<br />So if you have a sincere question please ask it. If you want to debate there are probably discussions here which are more suited to that.<br />Looking forward to reading these! BTW don't be shy if you think your question is too easy or too hard. Just be sincere.</blockquote>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-2827403378638849552014-09-04T20:46:00.001-03:002014-09-04T20:46:36.688-03:00I'm thinking about answering questions I find from Agnostics The whole Calvinism debate thing really tired me out from blogging, but I miss it now. I miss it a lot. So I think I'll start a series answering questions that I find from Agnostics. I suspect no one is even checking the blog any more but that's OK. Ya'll come back!Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-15510709613454325672013-11-15T15:46:00.001-04:002013-11-15T15:46:53.329-04:00Waddya Got to Prove Anyway?<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjAy48cX4nGT3m8NqbFpFqhQbt39lpIy_Pc-kzG_AjEFIdieIkF3S4c9haUvmHJg9-2sxgQcV_0ozEe9a-TtP-XkyhAyDKlbR4PvoS6YPV3Kfg7PjbXdjB4t1igHkynfXtaR3r-ww/s1600/Atheism.png" imageanchor="1" style="background-color: #f3f3f3; clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="277" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjAy48cX4nGT3m8NqbFpFqhQbt39lpIy_Pc-kzG_AjEFIdieIkF3S4c9haUvmHJg9-2sxgQcV_0ozEe9a-TtP-XkyhAyDKlbR4PvoS6YPV3Kfg7PjbXdjB4t1igHkynfXtaR3r-ww/s320/Atheism.png" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Is Atheism a lack of belief which </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">makes no claims and so has no burden of proof?</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">What about Christianity? Do we, as Christians, have</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">a burden of proof? Is it wise to try to prove God?</span></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">If you have never been mocked by a fool, you have never preached the Gospel to the masses. </i></b></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Over the past few months I've run into more and more self proclaimed Atheists on Twitter who are militant activists going around nagging Christians and spewing anti-Christ hate.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">They are almost always elitist in attitude and yet (seemingly) never able address an argument as it is made. They dodge, use Ad Hominem, and Straw-Men but never seem to actually engage the real arguments.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">When pressed about their belief or position they claim to have no belief or position. They quote Richard Dawkins who has a clever system to define Atheism in such a way that you get to keep the title Atheist without actually saying saying that God doesn't exist.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">This position is justified by ignoring the philosophical definition of Atheism and Atheist, and adding a descriptive in front of the title which determines the knowledge level of the belief. They say that an Gnostic Atheist knows there is not God and therefore does not believe in Him. They say that an Agnostic Atheist doesn't know if there is a God, but still doesn't believe in Him. They say that Atheism speaks of belief, not knowledge. Therefore, these militant Twitter Atheists normally are the Agnostic Atheists, they <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"lack a belief"</span></i> or so they say.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">They want to claim the title Atheist but they don't want to have to defend it.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">It has been said by Christian Apologists that when the Atheist claims to have a <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"lack of belief"</span></i> in God that they are actually making a claim that to lack a belief in God is possible. Such a claim would stand in opposition to what <b>Romans 1:18-23 </b>says:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Rom-1-18"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">18 </span>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, </span><span class="text Rom-1-19" id="en-NKJV-27950"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">19 </span>because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. </span><span class="text Rom-1-20" id="en-NKJV-27951"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">20 </span>For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, </span><span class="text Rom-1-21" id="en-NKJV-27952"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">21 </span>because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. </span><span class="text Rom-1-22" id="en-NKJV-27953"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">22 </span>Professing to be wise, they became fools,</span><span class="text Rom-1-23" id="en-NKJV-27954"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">23 </span>and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">So Scripture says all men know God exists, and that they know about Him from what He has revealed through Creation.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">An argument about whether they know God exists often ensues when the Apologist brings up <b>Romans 1</b>. Often the Apologist can simply quote the Atheist back to him or her. Often in 1 on 1 conversations with Atheists they will blame God for things that have happened in their life, or in the lives of others. This reveals their true knowledge and disposition. Other times they will simply be filled with open hate for Him and quoting them on the subject shows that they do in fact hate Him. Since you cannot hate something you don't believe exists this generally proves that the Atheist does in fact have a belief in God.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">But what if they don't manifest hate so openly that you can quote it back to them? Are they right? Do they really lack a belief in God?</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Well the answer gets quite complicated, but, the short answer is no. The long answer includes a discussion of what it means that the "god of this age" has blinded the minds of those who disbelieve. In short, when one disbelieves the Gospel the god of this age, Satan, then blinds their minds because God has turned them over to a reprobate mind. <b>Rom 1:18-32</b>; <b>2Cor 4:3-4</b> They haven't always been blinded, but those who have willfully disbelieved are now. It is not that they lack a belief, but they have disbelieved and now have been blinded.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">This brings us to another topic they tend not to like. What you do has consequences. If you receive general revelation (the revelation God has given through Creation) God shall give you more, and more, specific revelation. He will go so far as to send and Evangelist to wherever you are in the world or History. If you reject it, He will let you reject it and let you suffer the consequences of doing so.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">The Atheists try to twist this into God playing favourites, or this being some sort of way for the Christian to try to get out of having a burden of proof. But think of it this way. If you don't pass High School you don't get into University. It IS that simple, but it is actually even simpler. If you refuse to accept what is obvious and what anyone can understand so that you can continue to blaspheme God then He has no reason to send you more. You are without excuse, you choose to refuse God, and so you have it the way you wanted it. </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">So be careful what you choose to do with the evidence you do have. If you are shown something that is evidence for God and you immediately go looking for any answer - no matter how valid or invalid - to give you an excuse for not believing it then don't be surprised if you can't seem to find any evidence for God after that. You refused, and now you have been turned over to your own sin. That sin will drag you to Hell unless you repent.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Last year I did an article entitled <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/07/the-drawing-of-god.html" target="_blank">The Drawing of God</a></i></b> which was focused on the Reformed movement, but it may be helpful for this topic as well.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Atheists expect Christians to be ever present trying to reach them. They act like the prettiest girl in school who thinks the whole world revolves around her. Atheists expect to Christians to answer every contrived argument they come up with and to keep doing so over and over again no matter if the atheist engages with any level of intellectual integrity or not. Well Christian, if you are playing along with that you're not doing them any service nor are you engaged in Evangelism. You've simply become an entertainment system for the perishing fool on their way to the Lake of Fire. If they disbelieve that is their decision and they are responsible for it.</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Is the Atheist responsible to what Scripture says?</i></b></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">The Bible says what it says, and and it is absolutely true. No matter if it is speaking on science, belief, or anything else. Does the idea that Atheists don't believe the Bible excuse them from all of this? Well <b>Romans 1</b> says that they are without excuse. Are they really? Can we prove they are?</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Enter the Kalaam Cosmological Argument. It's a simple argument. Simple to state. Simple to understand. If it were not true, it would also be simple to falsify.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Here it is:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><b>Premise 1:</b> All things which begin to existence are caused to come into existence. </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><b>Premise 2:</b> The universe began to exist. </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><b>Therefore: </b>The universe was caused to come into existence. </span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">We know <b>Premise 1</b> is true to a very high degree of probability, so high as to realize that it is beyond absurd to presume it is not true. We know this inductively. Everything we have ever seen come into existence was caused to come into existence by something or someone else.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">We know <b>Premise 2</b> is true through deductive, and scientific evaluation. This has been proved repeatedly, and every theory to the contrary has failed testing with the Scientific Method. This is even true for a theorized Multiverse, if that were to exist.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Since we know both premises are true, and the conclusion necessarily follows from the premises, then we know that the Universe had a cause.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">The real question is does each person have awareness of this fact? Yes, of course! We know this inductively. The universe is aging and wearing out. Things that age and wear out all had a beginning. If something is wearing out, it cannot have existed forever because it would have worn out all ready. Entropy is something no created thing can overcome.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">To argue against the Universe having a Creator or Cause would require a deductive argument that overcomes millennia of observations which support that it does have a Cause.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Therefore the universe was caused, and we know it to such a high degree of probability that we are without excuse.</span><br />
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<b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">If someone has rejected all the evidence around them, and this evidence is so obvious that they are without excuse for rejecting it, it is not reasonable to simply pile more evidence up for them to reject. </i></b></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">God says that if they reject the evidence they are given that He turns them over to a reprobate mind. Why would we try to do what God will not do? I say don't do it!</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">BUT is this just a cop-out? Is this a way for Christians to get out of answering tough questions? Apparently not, because there are many Christian's who are scientists doing amazing work answering the toughest questions and making accurate predictions where secular scientists are failing. <b><i><a href="http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/21/21_3/21_3.html" target="_blank">The 1984 prediction of the planetary magnetic field strengths by Dr. Russell Humphreys is just one example of this.</a></i></b></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">We're not ducking the questions and we are engaged in hard science and vigorously test our ideas and theories by the Scientific Method.</span><br />
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<b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">If Christianity is true, then God reveals Himself.</i></b></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Here's the thing; if Christianity is true then God really does reveal Himself. Then He really does convince and convict sinners of Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment. Then He really does tell the truth in His Word.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">When the Christian reduces God to a theory to be proven he does two terrible things. He tries to usurp God's authority in revealing Himself, AND he starts with the premise that God not existing is a reasonable idea.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><b><i>Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?</i></b> </span></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Which is more extraordinary; to claim that God created the Universe and revealed Himself through the Scripture, History, and the Lord Jesus Christ, OR that the Universe which we know to have a beginning was uncaused, that established scientific laws which govern things like Abiogenesis, thermal dynamics, entropy, information and more were all violated by an uncreated universe and evolution?</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">I like how this video puts it: At least with Magic you have "magic" as an explanation.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><object class="BLOGGER-youtube-video" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" data-thumbnail-src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/Gg9q_N0WpHU/0.jpg" height="266" width="320"><param name="movie" value="http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/Gg9q_N0WpHU&source=uds" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed width="320" height="266" src="http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/Gg9q_N0WpHU&source=uds" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Creation reveals the Creator; whether Atheists like Him or not. The only thing the Christian Evangelist ought to focus on is introducing people to the Creator. It is perfectly reasonable to consider the question of <b><i>Who </i></b>this Creator is. We see that through out History He has revealed Himself in various ways. In our age He has given His Son. We are to be like Paul, proving from the Scripture how that Christ must suffer, die, be buried, and rise again the third day. Having done this we are to show that Jesus is this Christ and that God has through His own Son provided for the reconciliation of the world back to Himself.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Those who insist on the claim that there is no evidence, or refuse to honestly examine the evidence, cannot be won over by more evidence which they will only ignore. Beloved Christian, you need not "prove" anything to the Unbeliever. You do not bear the "burden of proof." God does, and He has explained how He reveals Himself and who He will allow to be blinded.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Unbelievers need the conviction of Scripture.</span><br />
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<b style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Rom 10:17</b><br />
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<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">So then faith <i>comes</i> by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.</b></span></blockquote>
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<br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-60140544739773658012013-10-22T21:06:00.003-03:002013-10-23T14:43:13.835-03:00Amber Strikes Back <span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">This is a follow up to the article titled <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-fruit-of-believing-false-gospel-and.html" target="_blank">The Fruit of Believing a False Gospel and Refusing Answers</a></i></b></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /><b><i><a href="http://amrestorative.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/response-to-a-critique-by-kevin-lane/" target="_blank">Amber responded to that article with an article of his own.</a></i></b><br /><br />BEFORE I START: This is written very quickly as I am preparing a teaching package for a weekend conference. The grammar will, without doubt, be horrendous. If this means to you that I am not to be taken seriously then laugh all you like. Just don't think this gives you an excuse to disbelieve in God.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br />Amber's description of me is amusing. I would be surprised if the two of us could not be friends (of some sort) in real life. He complains about my use of " LOL!!!!" which was a reaction to absurd tweets of his over our conversation of a few days. It apparently had the intended effect.<br /><br />Amber's first premise is that he, as an Atheist, IS interested in evidence. This is of course in opposition to my premise that this is not the case. The speed with which Amber was able to answer the multitude of evidence sources I offered belies the truth of the situation. Amber isn't interested in evidence, he is skilled at finding things that claim to be refutations of evidence. It is not physically possible that Amber evaluated very much of the evidence I shared with him at all and also evaluated whether the sources he cites were actual refutations of the evidence provided. He simply searched his resource for things that claimed to be refutations.</span><br />
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<b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">This is not the behaviour of one who is interested in evidence at all. This is the behaviour of protectionism. This is the behaviour of one who is desperate to maintain the appearance of being correct, not the behaviour of one who wants to know the truth.</i></b></div>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br />Amber then responds to my assertion that he was not in fact born again. He first says that I was correct in my assessment but then later writes as if he disagrees with me. The fact is that being "born again", or regenerated, is a meta-physical change that happens to those who believe the Gospel. If Amber thinks this does not actually happen, then he must agree that he was never actually born again. Though his conversion story did not include any details that remotely relate to the <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/p/the-doctrine-of-salvation-soteriology.html" target="_blank">Doctrine of Salvation</a></i></b>, Amber now (after having read the linked article) includes information that at least in spots does line up with what Scripture says. It is however easy to answer a question when you know the "right" answer to give. </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Amber then brings up his dislike of how God handled the Canaanites. He claims that God ending a civilization that practiced the laying of babies and young children on heated metal idols to cook them to death as being an evil act by God.<br /><br />Amber says that there are things that context cannot fix. I do not see anything broken. If you have trouble with God punishing those who cook babies to death then I think that speaks of you more than it does of God.<br /><br />Amber then talks about how he doesn't accept that we are depraved from birth. He doesn't like my challenge to find a perfect man... So I'll lower the standard for Amber, just for Amber though... because I like him. One wonders if my repeated use of three periods in a row also bugs Amber. Hrmm?<br /><br />Amber, find a child who had to be taught to lie, cheat, steal, be violent, and so on... The truth is if a 2 year old had the strength of an adult we would have to lock him or her up to protect society from the menace. </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Amber then takes issue with my response to him about the Atonement that Christ accomplished with His death, burial, and resurrection. </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: ff-meta-serif-web-pro-1, ff-meta-serif-web-pro-2, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Kevin missed the point of the injustice I tried to highlight in this section, so I’ll state it more plainly. Consider two men. One is an old man who spent his entire life causing serious harm: rape, murder, the worst of the worst. The other is a normal young man in his twenties that tried, and succeeded, to avoid causing serious harm. Now, the old man becomes a true Christian, dies and gets rewarded. The young man does not become a true Christian, dies, and get punished. That is devoid of justice.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">The old man's sin was fully and completely paid for. Justice was served for it. The young man's harm, no matter how insignificant it is to a man who is hardly even aware of it remains unpaid for. Just like in our justice systems here on Earth - if the fine is paid you go free, if it isn't you go to jail.<br /><br />You may not think that a lie is a terrible thing, but Amber you are in danger of eternal judgment because you refuse to take the salvation that is freely available to you, and why? Because you choose to believe lies. You may not think lies are serious now, but like the rich man who found himself in Hell there is coming a time when you will take them very seriously. There is coming a time when you would do anything to have someone warn the people you love. The staggering answer to that desire will be no different than what the rich man heard: they have all the evidence they need, if they refuse it they are themselves responsible. <b>Luke 16:19-31</b><br /><br />Next for Amber is the doctrine of Heaven and Hell. He does not seem to appreciate my interaction with the subject. He quotes an analogy of mine, and claims to like it. One assumes that he likes it because he feels he can insert the following into it:</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><i style="color: #274e13;">Perhaps the analogy is weak due to the missing context. For it to be a better reflection of what is actually going on, we must consider the following: 1) the judge wrote the law himself, 2) the judge made the law impossible for anyone to follow, 3) the judge created the criminal organisation</i> [SIC]<i style="color: #274e13;"> in which the law-breaker was born and raised, and 4) the judge is the father of the law-breaker.</i></span></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">1 - yes the Judge wrote the Law Himself. You know what a Law does? It informs the potential Criminal of what is disallowed, and what the cost of violation is. God didn't just write the knowledge of Good and Evil in a book, He wrote it on your heart Amber. When you do evil you know it is evil. Because God has done this for you, you are without excuse. <b>Romans 2:12-16</b><br /><br />2 - The Judge Himself came and lived as a man and fulfilled the whole Law. The Law is not impossible to keep. It is impossible for an evil man to keep God's Law.<br /><br />3 - The Judge did not create the evil organization. God created Man in His own image. Man had the freedom to live in innocence or to try to live by his own standards. Man choose his own way because the Devil lied to him. The very first murder in all of History was perpetrated with a weapon known as a lie Amber. Man was created innocent and free. Man choose evil and bondage. Have you chosen any differently Amber? <br /><br />4 - the Judge is not the father of the law-breaker. The law-breaker is the child of Satan. <b>John 8:37-47</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Amber says:</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: ff-meta-serif-web-pro-1, ff-meta-serif-web-pro-2, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">In other words, the judge is responsible for the unfortunate situation that the law-breaker finds himself in.</span></i></span></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Nope. The Judge is responsible for providing the only way out of this unfortunate situation. He didn't have to. He didn't cause the problem. He is the like the earthly father, who is also a judge let's say, who lets his son drive the family car after making sure the son knew the rules. The son goes out and breaks the rules and finds himself in trouble with the law. The father didn't get the son in trouble with the law. The father is a judge and responsible for the law (I am TRYING to follow Amber's attempt at rebut...), and responsible for the existence of the son, but he is not responsible for the son's law-breaking: THE SON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN SIN.<br /><br />Amber complained about how terrible it was to put the sins of the father on the son in his previous article. Isn't interesting how he thinks it is OK to put the sins of the son on the father though.<br /><br />Amber then claims that I overstated his suffering. Perhaps, but I doubt it for some reason. No, not because Amber is a pathological liar, but because IMO his responses come from pain and emotion not rationality.<br /><br />Yet he makes a very true statement: </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: ff-meta-serif-web-pro-1, ff-meta-serif-web-pro-2, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">I now think that Christianity failed me, and that Christianity fails full stop, but as a Christian I never once thought this.</span></i></span></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">I believe, strongly, in the corruption of the Christian testimony; how that the Church Which is His Body, will loose its testimony to worldliness and false doctrine more and more over time. The false Christianity that Amber was exposed to cannot help but fail. He notes many things about different denominations, and one cannot argue. Christendom (all people who think they are Christians or call themselves Christians) grows more and more evil daily.<br /><br />Amber moves on to say that my assertion that he hates God is false. He says he hates religion and whatnot... I'll let Amber's own testimony speak for itself. OK I'll add one thing. If Amber truly hated all the things that he claims to hate he would argue against those things, not against God.<br /><br />Under the title of "The Joys of Atheism" Amber quotes the late Christopher Hitchens. </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: ff-meta-serif-web-pro-1, ff-meta-serif-web-pro-2, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way” – Christopher Hitchens</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Yet when he offers answers to the evidence I shared with him he doesn't once think for himself. I doubt he even looked at all the evidence I shared. I know that I gave him more than he could have physically viewed in so little time, let alone honestly evaluate them.<br /><br />No, instead of thinking for himself Amber did what all people are prone to do. He received a challenge and searched his resources for any potential answer to the challenge. Christians do this too. There is even wisdom in using someone else's answers, but ONLY if you have carefully evaluated them to ensure they are actually reliable (they address the real arguments, and the actually rebut them.... among other criteria).<br /><br />Amber is far from the first Atheist I have ever interacted with. It would be wrong for me to paint him with the same brush (as it were) but I can comment that his argumentation is not unique or remarkable. I am not trying to be dismissive, I'm trying to be real. However, this may be a distinction without a difference.<br /><br />Under the title "Historically Accurate" Amber demonstrates his ability to inaccurately quote those he disagrees with and then argues against the strawman he created instead of what I wrote. I'm going to quote almost this entire section. </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Weirdly, Kevin lists historians of the time—Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Julius Africanus, Origen, and Pliny the Younger—in this section on Daniel’s prophesy. All of these historians were born after Christ’s supposed crucifixion, so I’m not sure of the relevance. Unless Kevin is saying that they specifically reference Daniel’s prophesy, which I highly doubt.</span></i> </span></blockquote>
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<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13;">Kevin also claims that all historians at the time wrote about Jesus. Let’s forget about the fact that none of them were even born before Jesus died. The more pertinent question is why were there not hundreds of historians, during Jesus’s lifetime, documenting His every word and action, to prove his historicity? Why have a handful of scholars write about him after he had died?</span></i></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Here is what he is talking about:</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #0c343d;"><b style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">Extra Biblical References to Jesus at this Time</b><b style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Julius Africanus, Origen, and Pliny the Younger.</b></span></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;"><span style="color: #0c343d;">Not just some of the historians, but every one of them that wrote about this area at this time.</span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">I didn't say that these ancient historians lived at the time of Jesus but that they give reference to Him there at that time. In fact they do confirm the Biblical record. Here is <b><i><a href="http://christianthinktank.com/jrthal.html" target="_blank">ONE </a></i></b>article and <b><i><a href="http://christianthinktank.com/jesusref.html" target="_blank">ANOTHER</a></i></b> article which goes into deep detail about these things.<br /><br />Instead of dealing with the fact that every ancient historian writing about this period and area puts Jesus there and then doing the things that the Scriptures say He must do, and actually did Amber chooses to distort what I said and argue against his distortion instead of the actual substance of the claim. <b><i><a href="http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/straw.htm" target="_blank">If there was only a term for that kind of behaviour.</a></i></b><br /><br />Amber offers several links to failed prophecies from the Bible. I've looked at these things before. Should I say that you said something that didn't happen and so you are a failed prophet I would have to be sure that's what you said not just what I said you said. I'm not sure I've ever said the word said that many times in my mind ever before, as I just said it.<br /><br /><b><span style="color: #660000;">*Update:</span></b> It should be noted that I did not examine each of the links Amber provided on the subject of failed prophecy in the Bible, even though I have commented on his use of them. Keeping with the subject of Daniel it is irrefutable that the book was written prior to the events it describes and that it accurately describes those events including the (future at the time of the writing) history of the Gentile world. There are some 300 prophecies of Christ many very specific and some typological which were written hundreds and thousands of years before He lived here on Earth which were fulfilled. There are yet future events still in prophecy which have not yet happened. Some call this a failure by default, but the Scripture is not silent on the order of events so it is clear there is no failure. Twisting the Scripture to make it say what it does not and then showing how that failed is not a valid form of argumentation. I don't know if that is the tactic all the links Amber shared take or not, I did not visit them all. However, this is the pattern and my response to Amber was not intended to include refutations of all his links. If my main premise - that Amber is not interested in evidence after all - is correct (and I believe it has been shown to be so) then spending time and effort on this would simply be a waste. I already know the answer and the answers are freely available for anyone who will look past their atheistic sources.<br /><br />Amber disputes the heptadic structure of the Scriptures. They are freely available for anyone to look at. Ad hominem against Chuck Missler doesn't invalidate the fact of how the Scriptures are written. I challenged Amber to produce a similar document. I guess he choose to insult Chuck instead.<br /><br />Amber says that <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"many of"</span></i> <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2006/08/scientific-facts-concepts-in-bible.html" target="_blank">The Scientific Facts and Concepts in the Bible</a></i></b> which were written hundreds and thousands of years before they were "discovered" are unconvincing because they are not specific enough for him. Does this mean that some where specific enough? Interestingly Amber chooses the weakest example to attempt a rebut and even this weak point he is only able to describe as unconvincing to him.<br /><br />Under the title <b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"No Contradictions"</span></i></b> Amber writes:</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: ff-meta-serif-web-pro-1, ff-meta-serif-web-pro-2, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">I made the claim that even if all contradictions could be solved satisfactorily, Christians must, at least, agree that the bible is ambiguous.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">The Bible is not ambiguous, as I demonstrated in the previous article. Strangely though he then accuses me: </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: ff-meta-serif-web-pro-1, ff-meta-serif-web-pro-2, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Lastly, I submit that Kevin himself is bigoted towards gay people, and uses the bible as justification. The evidence for this is the fact that he recommened that I read the divisive book, A Queer Thing Happened To America: And What a Long, Strange Trip It’s Been, by Michael Brown.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Ad hominem aside... I am "<b><i><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigoted" target="_blank">bigoted</a></i></b>" because I recommended a book that explains how the popular opinions of the public in North America were manipulated? Yes Amber, I link to a dictionary because words have meanings. I know that you enjoy using Dawkins' redefinitions of Atheism and Agnosticism, but I tend to use the plain meanings of words. At least as much as I am able to do. How am I being intolerant of anyone by linking to that book?<br /><br />Amber is not sure if the manuscript evidence I cited for the New Testament is accurate or not.<b><i><a href="http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence" target="_blank"> Here ya go Amber.</a></i></b> You can make up stories about how the Text has changed all you want, but I can simply look at the manuscripts and see that it has not.<br /><br />Amber then gives a number of links in response to the links I provided. You can look at them if you like or not.. it doesn't matter to me. The evidence for God is plain and on display. You can spend your life trying to find ways to ignore it, or you can open your eyes. It's truly up to you.<br /><br />In conclusion I stand my my previous assertions. Amber was never really Born Again (regenerated), or if he was (and perhaps he was given his late testimony) he was born among the thorns and was choked out by religion instead of being nourished. <b>Mat 13:5-6</b> I don't think this is the case, but it is possible. Further I stand by the assertion that Amber is not interested in evidence. He did not even consider the evidence I provided him, though he did read at least some of it.<br /><br />Amber finishes with:</span><br />
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<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13;">Lastly, in Kevin’s conclusion he said something that saddened me, <span style="border: 0px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">“I will not be debating, or allowing the debate of, the existence of God. There is no debate, and I won’t blaspheme God by pretending that there is.”</span>Certainty, and the refusal to even evaluate answers, should sound alarm bells. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Do so always, and do not stop.</span></i></blockquote>
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">I am able to critically examine all things without having to endure endless insult by those who have no intention of doing likewise. If an Atheist were to say that they don't believe that God exists but that they want to explore the possibility I would work with that person to see that they had the opportunity to evaluate the evidence. Letting people post links to things they have not carefully considered themselves, while they expect me to rebut every word of it is not reasonable.<br /><br />Further, there is no debate. I know for a fact that you, Amber, are aware that there is a God and that you know many things about Him. Go make a blog about how you don't believe in purple squirrels and I'll take you more seriously.<br /><br />You say that people don't claim that a purple squirrel exists so you don't blog about that. Well, isn't it interesting that you don't have some title that says you disbelieve people's claims, but instead you choose the title Atheist. You talk about God and your denial of Him. Your hate for Him, your focus on Him, and the effort you invest in all of this belies your true motives. </span></div>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span></div>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-69922287774847071032013-10-12T21:31:00.000-03:002013-10-22T21:22:19.242-03:00The Fruit of Believing a False Gospel and Refusing Answers<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjoKom79IFYjh5FRFb40KzHw8YxKOU4TtAI1BpkXJwXGL5GjTYcH7WhQgpJGJ5CnuDm6VViNqxw7hvnSZLMzdiudRlTLr6H8pFsNTKNB0tn5BFMjYkCCMnBrmLtPWKR2ylm0sExEA/s1600/Lack_Belief.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" height="245" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjoKom79IFYjh5FRFb40KzHw8YxKOU4TtAI1BpkXJwXGL5GjTYcH7WhQgpJGJ5CnuDm6VViNqxw7hvnSZLMzdiudRlTLr6H8pFsNTKNB0tn5BFMjYkCCMnBrmLtPWKR2ylm0sExEA/s320/Lack_Belief.jpg" width="320" /></span></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">I tweeted this with the intention of</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">being funny, but Amber thought it wasn't smart.</span></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b><span style="color: #990000;">UPDATE:</span></b> <i><b>Amber, the person whose experience I am discussing in this article has responded with a blog post of his own. A link to this has been provided at the bottom of the article. I would prefer if readers would read this article first.</b></i></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">The Apostle Paul authored the letter to the Galatians with the intent of protecting those Believers and other people from the fruit of false gospels. Such gospels are lies from the enemy of our souls who steals away the seed of God's word and blinds the minds of those who disbelieve lest they might be saved.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Today I'm going to go over the "conversion story" of a false convert and we'll get to see the fruit of a false gospel; the horrendous pain, suffering, and anti-God witness it brings. The man who's story this is believes he was a true Christian, because no one ever told him what a Christian actually is. Sadly, his experience as a false convert among preachers of a false gospel has led him to believe that Christianity is a farce. So, I assume, he has gravitated to and accepted the teachings of men who ease his fears with devious arguments. He believes them because he has to. What else is there? In his mind he's tried being a Christian and that just didn't work. So these men who hate Christianity and speak clever but devious and false,arguments against God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Bible must be true. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">When engaging people about the existence of God you should never, ever, let God be treated like a scientific theory. Not only is He real, He is a person. You wouldn't debate the theoretical existence of a family member in the next room, you would introduce them. As we saw in a previous article, the person who takes the title Atheist normally isn't going to be persuaded by evidence because they are biased against any source you will give them. They need to meet Christ. They don't need "evidence" they need to repent. There is a multitude of evidence of course. Yet it is common for the Atheist to say "there is no evidence of God!" Why do they say that? Are they correct? Of course not. They say that because the only evidence they will accept is that which eases their consciences. There are endless excuses, fallacious attacks, and rabbit trails employed daily by Atheists trying their very best not to see the evidence of God all around them. <br /><br />I will be linking to evidence, argument, and answers throughout this article which directly relate to the person's complaints, concerns, and assertions. I am confident that the person will accept none of them. I restate: what I have learned is that no matter what the Atheist says, they don't want or even need evidence. They need to meet Christ, and that is done by the Scriptures and through the convicting and convincing work of God the Holy Spirit. The only thing in this article that has any hope of reaching this dear soul is the Scripture that I will quote and reference. Yet I will provide the evidence as well.<br /><br />I want to be clear here. I am not an expert in every area that I will attempt to speak on. I will have to link to material which has been produced by people who are experts in those areas. It is not a failing on the Believer's part, or a weakness of their position, or even an indication that God does not exist when we are not able to answer every question. That I don't have the answer doesn't mean the answer does not exist, and/or it cannot be discovered. Nonetheless, we shouldn't shy away from tough questions even if we as individuals only know a few answers. We also need to know that if a person refuses to accept a reasonable answer that is an indication of about their integrity, not an indication that the point we are making is not true. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">This brings me to an interesting person. A husband of the love of his life who calls himself Amber Restorative. Amber is interesting in several ways. He is thoughtful, clever, and at times very honest. I learned today, the day after I originally published this article that he can be very likeable as well. (I am currently taking a quick pass at improving the grammar.) At other times he is abrasive, dismissive, unreasonable and fallacious in his argumentation. He claims to be an Atheist who rejects that God exists (he claims there are kinds or levels of Atheism).<br /><br />Amber tweeted me (on Twitter.com of course) to express his displeasure about a tweet of mine that included the image at the top of this article. He wanted to tell me that what it said wasn't smart. I thought it was funny, and I fully intend on using this line the next time someone tells me I have to prove God to them because they have a lack of belief in Him. Just to be funny. It's OK to be funny, and to be sarcastic with people who are unreasonable. They need to know they aren't pulling the wool over any one's eyes. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">We had a long discussion on Twitter over a period of days that I will spare everyone the details of. We eventually got to the point where Amber claimed he once was a "Born Again Christian" and had rejected it. He says he "divorced Jesus." So I asked Amber what made him think he had been Born Again and eventually twitter's 140 character limit became tedious. So he pointed me to his blog where I could find an article titled <a href="http://amrestorative.wordpress.com/2012/11/04/part-i-on-how-i-became-a-christian/" style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;" target="_blank">Part I: On How I Became A Christian.</a><b style="font-style: italic;"> </b>I found the article to be engaging, and even entertaining, while at the same time shockingly devoid of scholarship on subjects the author writes on with assumed authority. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">I'm going to ask you to read along as we go. As per normal when I'm interacting with someone else's text, I am going to quote a lot. However, I want you to see the full context of everything Amber wrote. It is only fair to the man that he be given a full hearing. He honestly believes he was what a Christian really is. I believe that he is sincere in that belief.<br /><br /><b><i>Before we get started!</i></b><br /><br />I echo <b>1Tim 1:15</b> with all my heart!</span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">
</span>
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.</i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">I intend on taking Amber's article to task. I am not intending to "build bridges" but to reveal the truth of the experiences this dear soul has had, and the fallacies he is clinging to. I myself am a man of like passions! I too could just as easily rile against my Creator in anger and hate. I could justify my evil blaspheme and my evil desires by calling them normal. I have probably in my own life committed as much at least or more evil myself. </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br /><b><i>Let's get going!</i></b><br /><br />In the introduction Amber sets the stage with a bit of drama as he describes the moment he told his family that he had <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"accepted Jesus into [his] heart."</span></i> He sets up the drama such that the family might have expected the big announcement was that he had impregnated his ex-girlfriend (who was holding his hand at the moment). He tells us he had never had sex with a female up to that point, even though he had had sexual encounters with a male. He assures us that mutual masturbation with close boyhood friends is common, but that he had apparently gone beyond that. He calls the news he had to share with his family (of him accepting Jesus into his heart) <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"more sinister"</span></i> than if he had had to tell them that he had impregnated the girl.<br /><br />While the article carries a title that implies it is about how he came to be a Christian, it has precious little information about that subject. Instead, it seems, that Amber was unable to resist an opportunity to rage against the God he hates and make arguments against Him and those who are His. There are also several points where it seems Christians are being baited to jump on something he wrote, the introduction is only one of the more obvious points.<br /><br /><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"You Stupid, Stupid Boy"</span></i></b> (His title, NOT mine)<br /><br />In this section we learn that he <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"divorced Jesus six years ago"</span></i> which is not possible for someone who is actually Born Again. Here are a number of passages to consider on that subject: <b><span style="color: blue;">Mat 28:20; Jn 1:12; Jn 3:16-18; Jn 5:24; Jn 6:35-40,
47, 54; Jn 10:27-28; Jn 14:2-3; Rom 6:5-10; Rom 8:1; Rom 8:35,38-39; 1Cor
6:19-20; 2Cor 1:21-22; 2Cor 5:5-8; Gal 2:20; Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:22-24; 1Thes
4:13-18; Col 3:9-10; Phil 1:6; 2Tim 1:12; 2Tim 2:19; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 7:25; Heb
13:5; 1Pet 1:3-5; 1Jn 1:8 – 2:2; 1Jn 3:1-2; Jude 24-25</span></b></span><br />
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<!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment--><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br />He notes that he felt free in his new life, but that he was still "shackled by indoctrinated dogma." Yet his new found freedom only led him to be indoctrinated with different dogma that was no better. Yet it was pleasurable for him to receive this new dogma, just like it was pleasurable for him to "accept Jesus into [his] heart."<br /><br />Compare his description of some events from Amber's life:<br /><br />Of his acceptance of Jesus into his heart</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">I found myself in a car, parked outside my house with her praying for me. The floodgates had opened, and I couldn’t control my emotions. I cried, and thought </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">God is at work.</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> The parallel to my father’s conversion didn’t escape me.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Of his father's experience of accepting Jesus into his heart:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">One Sunday morning my father joined us for church—a rare occurrence—and halfway through the service he started crying. It had upset me at the time; my father </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">never</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> cried. I learned later that my father had been an atheist, and that he had prayed the night before, “I’m going to church tomorrow. If you’re real, prove it.” God’s proof was that my father—being a hard man—couldn’t contain his emotions and stop crying. I suspect my dad became a Christian for reasons similar to mine.</span></span></i></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Now look at his experience of his acceptance of the likes of Christopher Hitchens into his heart (my description not his): </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">...my chance discovery of the late—and great—Christopher Hitchens on YouTube. It was such a pleasure to listen to his reasoning as he debunked my remnant and bankrupt beliefs—imagine shackles hitting the floor.</i></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">These are emotional moments. They feel tremendously</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> powerful at the time. I know because I had similar experiences long before I was actually saved. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><br /></span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; text-align: justify;">The relief from guilt is a powerful drug indeed. If you mix in appeasement it becomes almost irresistible. It is this emotional explosion that many people, including Amber, can interpret as God working in them. We are emotional beings who are subject to passions of the flesh. Perhaps this is one of many reasons why we are to critically examine all things and hold fast only that which is good (or true). 1Thess 5:21<br /><br />Amber goes on to list Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennet and Dillahunty. He says: </span></span></span></div>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">
</span></span>
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13;">I’m just as fervent now as when I was a born-again Christian. Beliefs are important—they govern our actions—and it deserves contemplation.</span></i></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit; text-align: justify;">Here are some videos to contemplate. What we believe does matter. If what one believes can be honestly, consistently, so thoroughly, and so easily refuted by simple examination one should not build their life on it. </span><br />
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">
</span></span>
<br />
<ul><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">
<li>Here is a <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uvKH5qisgg" target="_blank">video of Hitchens debating William Lane Craig.</a></i></b> (YouTube) </li>
<li>Here is a <i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwhgPjPCpL8" target="_blank"><b>video of Sam Harris debating William Lane Craig.</b></a></i> (YouTube)</li>
<li>Here is a video of Richard Dawkins debating William Lane Craig, oh yeah he's too afraid to do that. So, here is the book <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Earth-Refuting-Dawkins-Evolution/dp/1921643064/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381528715&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Greatest+Hoax+on+Earth%3F+Refuting+Dawkins+on+evolution" target="_blank">"The Greatest Hoax On Earth? Refuting Dawkins on Evolution"</a></i></b> By Jonathan Sarfati PhD and the book <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-God-Reality-Critique-Delusion/dp/1846251265/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381528876&sr=8-1&keywords=The+God+Reality" target="_blank">"The God Reality. A Critique of Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion"</a></i></b> by Rob Slane</li>
<li>Here is a <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XThr8bM0mrI" target="_blank">video of Daniel Dennet debating William Lane Craig. </a></i></b>(YouTube)</li>
<li>Here is a <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYsdYBX0ZjQ" target="_blank">video of Matt Dillahunty debating Cliffe Knechtle.</a></i></b> (YouTube)</li>
</span></span></ul>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">
</span></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Of the time after he was exposed to the teachings of these men he writes:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">With new-found clarity, I look back at the night where I willingly became a slave to God, and I can’t help but think </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">you stupid, stupid boy</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">. But of course, it makes perfect sense; I didn’t stand a chance.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">He apparently asked Jesus into his heart, and willingly became a slave to God. This is how he explains "how I became a Christian." It is not shocking to me, as one who has spend the last 7 years now studying Soteriology, that a false gospel, an emotional experience, and bondage to bad doctrine and practice does not produce a truly Born Again Christian.<br /><br />Lest any one reading miss the point. This is the NORMAL result of preaching a gospel which one might think is more effective than what we read in the Scriptures. I no longer have any resistance to obeying <b>Gal 1:6-9</b> To fail to obey it is to put my mark of approval on men and women who inflict the kind of evil that this dear soul Amber has endured and continues to endure to this day.<br /><br />He's right though. He didn't have a chance. We'll see near the end of this article exactly the situation the boy found himself in, and I struggle to imagine that I would have responded at all differently. One thing about religion, it sure attracts followers easily. It is a shame that religion eats it's followers and inoculates them against faith and truth. Of course I must recognize that Amber would not easily see the distinction between religion and what I preach.<br /><br /><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Abraham's God</span></i></b> </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">The barbaric Old Testament is for the most part not relevant here, but its God is worth a quick mention, if for no other reason than to point out that believers often overlook—or worse, justify and accept—their Lord’s brutality. I did the same, and that is interesting, isn’t it?</span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;">The Abrahamic God of the Old Testament is a monster. He condoned the enslavement of people, the rape of woman, the slaughter of men, and even the murder of children. Not only did he allow it, he <span style="border: 0px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">commanded</span> his tribe to commit these atrocities. By today’s moral standards, the <span style="border: 0px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">unchanging</span> God of the Covenant is a racist, vindictive, sadistic, jealous, petty, and childish psychopath. But it makes sense; barbaric humans will create a barbaric God.</span></i></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">For those who think this characterization is at all correct they ought to read <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-Badly-Testament-ebook/dp/B00511MTKW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381531322&sr=8-1&keywords=God+Behaving+badly" target="_blank">"God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist, and Racist?"</a></i></b> by David T. Lamb<br /><br />I suggest this book because no matter how much the Atheist who makes this argument will claim that he "has read the Bible" what he means by that is he has gone looking for proof-texts that he can use out of context and completely in error for the sole purpose of trying to make God (or His Word) look bad. I could spend days refuting just this section but David Lamb has already done the work.<br /><br />This article written by Amber is just the first in a series extolling the virtues of his Atheism, justifying it and evangelizing others to it. Yet he seems more interested in expressing his hate instead of reasons not to believe. Even if what he wrote in this portion were true it would simply be his reasons to hate the God of the Scriptures, and cannot be construed as evidence against His existence.<br /><br />Here's an interesting truth which is relevant to the subject: one cannot hate something, or Someone, one does not believe exists.<br /><br /><b>*UPDATE*</b> It was not clear to me on my first reading of Amber's article why he included discussion of these things he calls doctrines. This morning I noted that these were the teachings which were part of drawing him to become what he thought or thinks a Christian is.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b><i>The Doctrine of Ancestral Sin</i></b> </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">
</span>
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;">Introduced in the latter part of the "good book" is the doctrine -- made so in the 2nd century -- of ancestral sin.</span></i></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">I'm not sure if he is implying here that the NT was written in the 2nd century or if he thinks this doctrine was developed then. I'm not sure when this "doctrine of ancestral sin" was developed. He tells us that this is more commonly called "Original Sin" but we'll see that his definition does not match what the Scripture teaches. The only teaching I've ever heard that sounds at all like what he describes (shortly) is taught in Charismatic circles and is completely extra-biblical. </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">The NT of course was written by eye witnesses during their own life times (obviously). For example: Paul who explains the depravity of man in Romans, died in AD 68. His writings, which are without controversy written by him, had to be written prior to his death. </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">...it’s more commonly called </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">original sin</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">, which declares that we are all guilty, wretched creatures, tainted by the bad choices of Adam and Eve—who many Christians believe to be figurative!</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">The doctrine that the Scripture teaches is that mankind is depraved. That unbelieving man is in bondage to sin. Here are some passages to consider: <b><span style="color: blue;">Gen ch1-3; Gen 1:26-27; Gen 5:3; Ps 51:5; Rom
3:9,22-23; Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-12; Col 1:21</span></b></span><br />
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<!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment--><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">As can be seen in the references man is not tainted by the bad choices of Adam and Eve, we are born in the image of Adam in his fallen sinful state. We are subject to like passions. We make evil choices. The Bible says in <b>Proverbs 20:6</b> </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><span class="text Prov-20-6" id="en-NKJV-16961" style="position: relative;">Most men will proclaim each his own goodness, b</span><span class="text Prov-20-6" style="position: relative;">ut who can find a faithful man?</span></span></i></b></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">If you want to prove the Bible's picture of man wrong you need to find a faithful man. A man who has never lied, stolen, hated, lusted, coveted... who has only ever done righteousness... who has worshiped the Lord God only, who obeys his parents, who has no capacity to do evil and full capacity to do only good and so on and so on. The Lord Jesus Christ is the standard of the perfect man. <b>Rom 2:16</b><br /><br />People have a low view of sins like lying as though it is a common thing so it is normal and doesn't merit eternal punishment. Yet it is sin because it is unlike God; Who cannot lie. When the one you love lies to you or lies about you. If they deceive you and you find out they wanted one of your best friends instead of you.. does that not hurt you to your core? </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">If you tell your wife or girlfriend that she doesn't look fat in that dress and she goes to a party where everyone laughs behind her back, is that not evil and hurtful? </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Lying is evil and Scripture says in <b>Rev 21:8</b> </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.</i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Find me a perfect man and you have proved the doctrine that says all mankind is depraved, having been born in the image of sinful Adam wrong. Do it and you have proved the Bible wrong. You only have to find one. Don't forget to take breaks, you're going to need them. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber says "many" Christians believe Adam and Eve to be figurative. This "belief" is not because of anything the Scripture says, or anything that science that survives testing by the Scientific Method says. This is a "belief" which has been inflicted on some Christians (and many religious people who call themselves Christians or not) because they have drank the cool-aid of Molecules to Man Evolution, instead of <b><i><span style="color: #990000;">"critically examining all things holding fast to only that which is good."</span></i></b> <b>1Thess 5:21</b> It has been said that astoundingly intelligent men believing the theory of Molecules to Man Evolution is the practical proof of<b> Ps 14:1 and Ps 53:1</b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber then explains "Original Sin" or "Ancestral Sin":</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">This doctrine is the contemptible belief that my children are accountable for </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">my</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> actions. Even believers don’t think that it’s </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">just</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> to condemn a child for a parent’s transgression, yet they so easily accept their own sorry state without questioning the injustice.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">As discussed above the Scripture says we sin because we are sinners born in the image of Adam, and we are condemned because we are sinners. When Adam sinned mankind gained a conscience; knowing good and evil. We are sinners, and even though we know the difference between good and evil we choose to do evil. We are condemned by who we are, not by what Adam did.<br /><br />Here is an interaction with God in the OT, you know the God who Amber describes as brutal, and a monster. <b>Exo 34:5-9</b> </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span style="color: #990000;"><span class="text Exod-34-5" id="en-NKJV-2502"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">5 </span>Now the <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span> descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>. </span><span class="text Exod-34-6" id="en-NKJV-2503"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">6 </span>And the <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span> passed before him and proclaimed, “The <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>, the <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span> God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, </span><span class="text Exod-34-7" id="en-NKJV-2504"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">7 </span>keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”</span></span></i></b> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><span class="text Exod-34-8" id="en-NKJV-2505"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">8 </span>So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped. </span><span class="text Exod-34-9" id="en-NKJV-2506"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">9 </span>Then he said, “If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance.”</span></span></i></b></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">We see here the merciful God of the OT, and how Moses appeals to Him on the basis of His mercy, not in fear of His brutality...<br /><br />We also see however there was a time when God <b><i><span style="color: #990000;">"visited the iniquity of the fathers on the children"</span></i></b>, or would "attend to" the sin of the fathers that the children did. This is not punishing the son for something the father did, it is attending to the sin that the father passes to the son for him to do. It is a warning to fathers to be careful what they teach their children to do, for their children's sake. </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">If these fathers in Israel had passed on evil practice, false doctrine, or other sinful things to their children, that is teaching them to do these things. Then God would attend to and judge them for their doing them. Do not teach your child your sin if you don't want them to be dealt with by God for doing your sin. When you teach your child something they tend to teach their children. Be careful what you teach because if you teach them evil you are teaching them to teach evil. In the time in question the child would not be judged for what the father did, but for doing and teaching what the father taught them to do and teach. God sees it as the father's sin, because it is his influence that is being exercised, to the 3rd and 4th generation. It is hard to imagine that a family will still be following the father's lead 5 generations later, but 3 generations later it is easy to imagine. I assume that 4 is not unreasonable given an influential or significant man.<br /><br />This of course had to do with protecting the messianic pictures, prophecies, and clearly presenting the requirements the Messiah would have to fulfill. This was vitally important because Messiah's fulfillment of these things would be how Israel and the World were to know Him. This was a task set out for Israel that the Lord God would not allow them to fail at.<br /><br />To be clear that this is not calling the child guilty for the father's sin let us consider <b>Ezk 18:19-20</b></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><i><b style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Ezek-18-19"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">19 </span>“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. </span><span class="text Ezek-18-20" id="en-NKJV-20870"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">20 </span>The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.</span></b></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">The soul who sins shall die. the son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. This is of course, just like the above passage in Exodus, is not talking about eternal life, or eternal judgment. The soul is your temporal life here on Earth.<br /><br />The only injustice here is Amber burning a Straw-Man and claiming doing so discredits Christianity. <b>*UPDATE*</b> To be fair, if Amber has not studied these things and is relying on false teaching from what he later describes in a way consistent with what I call "Charismania" type assemblies then Amber himself is not the originator of the Straw-Man.<br /><br />Amber notes a very true concept: </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">It’s a short hop from believing you’re a problem, to accepting that you need solving, and it’s a shorter hop still to buying a solution.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">The truth is once one sees they are lost, that they will be judged for their sin, and there is nothing they can personally do to make good for what they have done they are RIGHTFULLY in a hurry to get found. This is the purpose of the conviction of sin! Not to put guilt and shame on a person, but to get them to 'fess up and give up the struggle they have to pretend they are actually a "good person" so that they can be saved, healed, FREED!<br /><br /><b>*UPDATE*</b> If it was the idea that he would be held responsible by God for his father's sin that brought Amber to the point where he wanted to be a Christian then that is just another example of a terrible message being taught to the man. Amber seems to imply that his father was less than a good husband, but I shall not read too much into this. We are each responsible for our OWN sin. We are subject to the results of our parent's sin - we suffer their bad decisions don't we. But God will hold us to account for what we do and don't do ourselves. </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<b><i><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;">The Doctrine of Atonement </span></i></b></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Next up Amber again gets close to the truth:</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">God’s law gets an upgrade in the New Testament, and we are now even convicted for thought-crime. Just thinking lustful thoughts, or coveting another’s possessions, makes you a criminal. It’s impossible for any lowly ancestor of Adam to stay on the straight and narrow.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">God's Law as Amber states it is actually Mosaic Law. It didn't change or get upgraded. It was explained by the One who had given it in the first place, and was here among us to fulfill it Himself. It was applied properly. The Law is like a mirror, it lets a man see who he really is. <b>Rom 3:20; Rom 7:25; 1Tim 1:8-11</b> </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br />He is correct to say that it is impossible for any person to stay on "the straight and narrow" by their own efforts. If we could meet God's perfect standard then Christ would have died in vain. <b>Gal 2:21</b><br /><br />This is the reality of the position we find ourselves in. Not only does Scripture declare it to be so, we know this to be true by inductive reasoning. We have never met a faithful man, someone who did no wrong, does not wrong and will never do any wrong.<br /><br />The "upgrade"Amber talks about is actually the Lord revealing the intent of the Law. When we commit sin this is just the end of a long process of the evil in our own heart brewing and growing. We lust long before we commit adultery. We covet long before we steal. We hate long before we murder. <b>Jas 1:15</b> The Lord God is interested in who we are, what the heart of our beings is like. The Lord spoke to the religious people who ruled over the people in the time when He was here in the flesh. This is what He said to them as recorded in <b>Matt 23:27-28</b></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Matt-23-27" id="en-NKJV-23946"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">27 </span><span class="woj">“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-23-28" id="en-NKJV-23947"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">28 </span><span class="woj">Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.</span></span></i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Amber then points out one of the most frustrating things for the average religious person about Christianity: </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">There are no points for effort either; God is strictly black and white.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Isa 64:6; 2Cor 6:14; 1Jn 1:5</b> and so on. The religious person wants to be accepted by God on their own terms, on some basis that says they are good or acceptable. But we are not good, we are not acceptable. We are darkness and He is light.<br /><br />Amber notes how God has a solution, and he correctly notes how God Himself makes atonement so evil man can be reconciled to holy God. He doesn't like the idea though: </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">This doctrine is the immoral belief in vicarious redemption—the mother of all scapegoats.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Firstly, there can be no objective morality without an Objective Moral Giver. See: <b><i><a href="http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-new-atheism-and-five-arguments-for-god" target="_blank">The Moral Argument for the existence of God by William Lane Craig (Scroll down to section 3).</a></i></b> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">Secondly, "the Scapegoat" was part of the Day of Atonement picture of Christ's work. To understand why Christ bore away the sins of those who Believe on Him see </span></span><b style="font-family: inherit; line-height: 18px;">Lev 16:1-34</b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;"> Here we find the doctrine of the Scapegoat as well as the Propitiation. The Scapegoat was a picture of one part of Christ's cross-work.</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">But is vicarious atonement immoral? Consider this. ANY TIME THERE IS FORGIVENESS the innocent party is the one who pays. There is no exception to this.</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">If I owe you $10 and you forgive my debt to you, the innocent party, are out $10 and I the guilty party am credited $10 that I previously owed. If I pay you back then there is no forgiveness. This is true of every situation where there is forgiveness. When you forgive someone for something you are suffering some cost, injustice, pain, or other form of loss without it being restored unto you by the guilty party. If you want justice served, and so the debt paid it is the innocent party, the one who forgives who must pay. Otherwise there is no forgiveness. </span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">Where there is forgiveness the innocent one always pays. If the guilty party pays there is no forgiveness. You cannot forgive a debt without either paying it back yourself, or suffering the loss yourself.</span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">In the heart of man we rile against the very concept of forgiveness. We are </span></span><span style="line-height: 18px;">vengeful and want to exact justice on the people we even perceive as having done wrong to us. Think I'm wrong? Go for a drive and get a little too close to someone from behind. Pass someone. Drive a little slower than they would like to go. Enjoy your drive... </span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;"> </span></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">God, the innocent party, has paid for us, the guilty party, so that He may forgive. However, not only can He forgive, for I suppose He could do that by just suffering the loss. But God is Just, and so He Himself PAID the debt so that there would be no loss, so that evil would be judged and dealt with. So that He could be JUST while being the justifier of those who believe in Christ. </span></span><b style="font-family: inherit; line-height: 18px;">Rom 3:21-26</b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">However, Amber didn't understand this. He thought forgiveness was done because of faith, albeit <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"sincere"</span></i> faith. </span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">It’s the abandonment of accountability and justice. Murder, steal, cause as much harm as you can manage, it’s okay, just accept Jesus on your deathbed—sincerely, of course—and you’re pardoned. </i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">If forgiveness happened because one <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"accepted Jesus"</span></i> no matter how sincerely, then Amber may have a point. However, this is not the basis of forgiveness. The basis of forgiveness is that the guilt debt one owes has been paid for by the One who forgives - as is the case whenever there is forgiveness.<br /><br />You cannot simply <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"accept Jesus"</span></i> and be saved. You need to repent, be convicted of Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment. <b>Jn 16:5-11</b> You need to judge yourself guilty, that your sin is sin, and that it is righteous for God to judge you for it. In short you need to agree with God about how evil you are. Having agreed with God about your debt, you are then in a position to put your faith in the One Who graciously paid your debt.<br /><br />It is easy to rebut the Christianity of Hollywood and Richard Dawkins, but that is not the Christianity of reality as detailed in the Scriptures.</span></span><br />
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Amber finishes his argument with:</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">However, if you don’t know of Jesus, or you doubt, you’re doomed, no matter how good a life you’ve led.</span></i> </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;">Is there a more morally bankrupt idea than this?</span></i></blockquote>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">The issue is that there is no one who lives a good life. Better than Hitler? Sure. Better than I have? Most certainly. But good? Not a chance. There is not one who does good. We know this inductively, and we also see it proclaimed over and over again in the Scriptures. <b>Ps 14:1-3; Ps 53:1-3; Rom 3:12</b><br /><br />History has born witness, and so does the Scripture; if one responds to general revelation (of Creation) God will send more revelation including sending a preacher of the Gospel directly to you.<br /><br />I recently met a man who lives in my city who grew up under a witch doctor on an island in the Pacific. He tells an amazing tale of how he knew there was a God who made the Universe and how he kept having dreams about judgment for the blood on his hands. Eventually he had a dream about a line of up people who had done evil who were being cast in to a pit of fire. This man had never heard of a Bible let alone had someone preach to him.<br /><br />He had believed there was a Creator God, and this same Creator God was giving him more revelation. He kept responding and eventually a preacher of the Gospel came to him and preached the Lord Jesus Christ. This man is now saved and lives here in Canada. I don't even begin to give his story justice with this short telling. <b>Acts 8:26-39</b> is a similar story of how God sent a preacher to someone who had believed what God had already shown him.<br /><br />There are no good people, but if anyone anywhere believes what God has already shown him God will reveal more to them. </span></span><br />
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><br /><span style="line-height: 18px;">The only morally bankrupt idea here is the idea anyone lives a good life. Have you reader lied? Have you lusted? Have you stolen? Have you coveted? Ever hated or been angry without cause? Have you always </span><span style="line-height: 18px;">honoured</span><span style="line-height: 18px;"> your parents? </span></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="line-height: 18px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span></span>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px;">How about I tell my wife how good you are right now? <b><i><span style="color: #073763;">"Hey Hon, I just met this good guy! Well he's a liar, an adulterer at heart, a thief, a murderer at heart, who seeks after the things other people own, and dishonours his parents.. but other than that he's a good guy!"</span></i></b></span><br /><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;"><br /></span></i></b></span></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">The Doctrine of Heaven and Hell </span></i></b><br /><br />Amber states that the idea of Heaven and Hell is probably the <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"most evil man-made idea to date"</span></i> and goes on about how it has falsely given hope and fear to millions. How does he know this hope and fear to be false? Oh he doesn't say. </span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">This doctrine is the absurd belief that an all-powerful, all-merciful, all</span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">-loving</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> God will condemn people for an </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">eternity</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> of pain, just for disbelief, or doubt, or lack of knowledge of Christ.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">God does not condemn people to an eternity of pain because of their disbelief, or doubt, or lack of knowledge of Christ. He condemns guilty sinners for their sin. He condemns those who die in their sin to the only place where His children will never be so the sin of guilty sinners will never again hurt His children or blaspheme His Name.<br /><br />In short He won't let pedophiles hang out with His children. Liars, murders, haters, adulterers, all people who do not judge their sin and be reborn in Christ must be kept away from His children in Heaven. No one goes to the Lake of Fire who did not willingly choose to go. As we know from <b>Rom 1:18-32</b> God only turns over people to their sin if they reject general revelation. If you reject Him, you will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. It is a place of torment not because God is beating you, not because the Devil is beating you, but because it is a place where God who is the source of all mercy is absent. You will experience a reality where there is absolutely no mercy, where there is absolutely no grace, where there is no forgiveness, no relief. You will experience this because you rejected God. You didn't want Him, well that's exactly what you'll get. </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">This wickedness is taught to children; it’s mental </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">abuse</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> and unconscionable.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><span style="text-align: justify;">How can one judge "wickedness" without a standard for good? It's just your opinion and it doesn't matter to anyone else. Without a Objective Moral Giver, there can be no objective morality. Are you the standard of good Amber? Who should care what you think is wicked or unconscionable?</span><span style="text-align: justify;"><br /></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><span style="text-align: justify;">Amber continues</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Believers are also quick to claim—very nobly, I’m sure—that God deeply laments each person who rejects his advances. Yes, he regrets it so much that he will torture you for an eternity.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. <b>Ezk 18:23; Ezk 18:32; Ezk 33:11</b><br /><br /><b>Imagine a scene:</b><br /><br /> A guilty law-breaker is standing in court at his sentencing before a loving, but just, Judge. The judge sets the sentence in accordance with the law. The man owes $1 million dollars. The guilty man can pay the fine or go to jail for life. He doesn't have the money.<br /><br />After the guilty man is brought to his cell the judge visits him with compassion in his heart. He tells the man he will pay the $1 Million if the man admits his guilt. The judge promises to take the man into his family and to teach him how to live a good and productive life.<br /><br />The guilty man looks at the judge who just offered an unimaginable gift, a gift that any guilty law-breaker facing life in prison ought to jump at, and spits in the judge's face. He screams at the judge! You are a hateful man! You send people to prison! You tell people what they can and cannot do! You hate those who have different ideas than you do! I hate you! I am better than you! I want nothing to do with you!<br /><br />The judge had offered all he had in order to save the man, but the man would not admit his guilt and take the free gift. The judge, being a just man, had to abide by the sentence cast down on the guilty law-breaker. He could not justly break the man out of jail. So he could do nothing but leave the man to his horrible fate, even though it broke the judge's heart.<br /><br />The analogy is weak, but it is clear enough for our purposes. The guilty sinner has the penalty of death on their head. If they suffer that penalty it is only because they have rejected the Judge's free gift. This is their fault, not that of the Judge. <b>Rom 6:23</b> says:</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.</i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Too Much to Ask</span></i></b><br /><br />Amber asks some questions:</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">...is it not reasonable to expect that God try his very best to make our choice an easy one? ... </span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">Why not physically reveal himself to every generation? Why not communicate with less ambiguity? Why not give scientific proof when we diligently seek it?</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><span style="text-align: justify;">Here we find the Atheist attempting to reduce God to a human level, or a theory. We should never entertain this type of idea. For if God were like a human, if He had to "try" to do thing then we could take Amber's complaining questions seriously. But He does not "try" to do things, He acts and things are done. <b>Isa 46:10</b><br /><br />If God had to "try" to do things then His failure to meet our expectations of Him - if only our expectations actually matched Who He is and what He does - could be seen as evidence He is not Who He says He is.<br /><br />The fact is though, Amber, your choice is an easy one. You can accept Creation declares a Creator and so be given more specific revelation or you can reject the Creator and worship the created instead. Of course you will suffer the consequences, but it is an easy choice.<br /><br />He physically revealed Himself at a specific time, doing specific things, in a specific place, openly, publicly and this is attested to by EVERY contemporary historian writing about that area at that time. He came on the day He said He would, and did exactly what He said He would do, and what He did was not possible for a man to do. If you reject this then it's on your head, not His.<br /><br />Here is just one example of the specificity of prophecy in the Scripture which was written AT LEAST 300 years before Christ was born and was probably written much earlier than that. This is an insert I have put in my bible.</span>
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Evidence:
Daniel 9’s Prediction of Christ’s Triumphal Entry</b><b> </b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b><span style="color: blue;">Daniel 9: vs24</span></b><b> The Scope <span style="color: blue;">vs25</span> The 69 Weeks <span style="color: blue;">vs26</span>
The Interval <span style="color: blue;">vs27</span> The 70<sup>th</sup> Week</b><b><br /></b>The Old Testament was translated into
Greek for the LXX or Septuagint around 285-270 BC.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Sabbatical Years<span style="color: blue;">
Lev 25:1-22; 26:33-35; Deut 15.</span></b> Seventy “sevens” implies weeks of
years <b><span style="color: blue;">Gen 29:27</span></b>.
Failure to keep this Sabbath was the basis for the 70 years captivity <b><span style="color: blue;">2Chr 36:19-21</span></b>
which is what Daniel was praying about when the angel came to him with this
prophecy.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>360 Day Years.</b> All ancient calendars
were based on 360-days per year; all calendars changed to 365 in 701BC. The
Bible uses 360 day years <b><span style="color: blue;">Gen 7:24; 8:3-4; Dan 4:16, 23,25; Dan 7:25; Dan 9:27; Dan
12:6-7; Rev 11:2-3; Rev 13:5</span></b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Artaxeres Longimanus
Decree March 14<sup>th</sup>, 445 BC <span style="color: blue;">Neh 2:5-8,17,18</span></b> is the one to rebuild the city IAW <b><span style="color: blue;">Dan 9:25</span></b>.
His accession in July 465BC, thus Nisan (March) of the first year would be in
the calendar year 464, and the 20<sup>th</sup> year would be in year 445.
According to Jewish tradition the day not being stated means it is the 1<sup>st</sup> of the month.
Therefore March 14<sup>th</sup>, 445 BC.<br /><br /><b>The Triumphal Entry of Messiah the Prince:</b> <b><span style="color: blue;">Mt 21:1-9; Mk 11:1-10; Lk 19:29-39; Jn 12:12-16 the </span></b>fulfilling
<b><span style="color: blue;">Zech 9:9.</span></b>
It is the only day Jesus allows people to proclaim Him King as they sing <b><span style="color: blue;">Ps 118</span></b>.
Jesus held them to account to recognize this day. <b><span style="color: blue;">Lk 19:41-44</span></b>.<br />This was the 10<sup>th</sup>
of Nisan, prior to the Passover on the 14<sup>th</sup> of Nisan 32 AD.<br /><b><span style="color: blue;">Lk 3:1</span></b>
tells us when the Lord’s ministry started. Tiberius was appointed 14AD, 15<sup>th</sup>
year = 29AD. There are 4 Passovers recorded during His ministry. The 4<sup>th</sup>
Passover was on the 14<sup>th</sup> of Nisan 32 AD<br /> <br />
To find the date on our calendar we must convert 360-day years into simple
days.<br /> <br />69 Weeks of Years = 69 X 7 =
483 years<br /> 483 years x 360 days = <b>173,880 days</b><br />445 BC – 32AD (476 years x
365 days) = 173,740 days<br />March 14<sup>th</sup> – April
6<sup>th</sup> = 24 days<br />Leap Years = 116 days<br /><b>Total =</b> <b>173,880 days</b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Extra Biblical
References to Jesus at this Time</b><b><br /></b><b>
Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Julius Africanus, Origen, and Pliny the Younger.<br /> </b><b><br /></b>Not just some of the historians, but every one of them that wrote about this area at this time.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Simple math, and history tell us that the Messiah came
the day He was predicted to hundreds of years before He was even born.</b></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>Refs: </b>Daniel’s
Prophecy of the 70 Weeks ~ Alva J. McClain<br />The Coming Prince ~ Sir
Robert Anderson<br />Daniel’s 70 Weeks – Koinonia
House Inc </span></blockquote>
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<!--EndFragment--><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">These men wrote of Jesus doing miracles and how His followers acted and what they did. They write of His death and the supernatural darkness that enveloped the world during the three hours He was on the Cross.<br /><br />For more detailed information including references check out <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Prophecy-Weeks-Alva-McClain/dp/0884692116/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381603164&sr=8-1&keywords=daniel%27s+70+weeks" target="_blank">Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks</a></i></b> by Alva J. McClain and <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Coming-Prince-ebook/dp/B003E3W5BW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1381603252&sr=8-2&keywords=the+coming+prince" target="_blank">The Coming Prince</a></i></b> by Sir Robert Anderson.<br /><br />This is just one example of many. I have this one prepared so I used it. The Bible is in the business of writing History long before it happens.<br /><br />Everything you need to understand Amber, God speaks with perfect clarity:</span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Repent and believe the gospel! All liars will share in the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. <b>Rev 21:8</b> It is appointed unto man once to die and then the Judgment. <b>Heb 9:27</b> The wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. <b>Rom 6:23</b> And so on...<br /><br />Of course the Bible as a whole is hard for you to understand, I would suggest you are incapable of understanding most of it because the things of God are spiritually discerned. The Scripture is a set of massively complex writings which speak on all the topics you can't talk about at work - sin, righteousness, sex, religion, politics... they have incredibly complex patterns including the <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flbaJfRwYxM" target="_blank">Heptatic Structure</a></i></b> (YouTube). <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1zZAkzLPEo" target="_blank">The Gospel of Grace hidden in Genesis</a></i></b> (YouTube) The names of the followers of Jesus at the cross <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8tKhgAGs2w" target="_blank">encrypted in Isaiah 53 a chapter about His cross-work</a></i></b>. (YouTube) More <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6m-xSFzRYk&list=PLZnh2k8g2v4QwfQ2Vj2kR94ajY3mvv-J4" target="_blank">"cosmic codes" in the Scriptures</a></i></b> (YouTube Playlist) Here is a picture showing all the quotations and cross references in the Bible:</span></span></span><br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjH1hqyGOYoot0xHk_auiLl_oUkOrWO-iydWnRASZSeN80v7BZQ4EKQWJ8Q7nYk6yR3jzm2vWSVPiq9WKuGhAdQYUMhhDGJPXf1r7Z6Dl1H37oY5TW7EOUFogPbUqkdTX8pKxjIfQ/s1600/Internet+Explorer+Wallpaper.bmp" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" height="192" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjH1hqyGOYoot0xHk_auiLl_oUkOrWO-iydWnRASZSeN80v7BZQ4EKQWJ8Q7nYk6yR3jzm2vWSVPiq9WKuGhAdQYUMhhDGJPXf1r7Z6Dl1H37oY5TW7EOUFogPbUqkdTX8pKxjIfQ/s320/Internet+Explorer+Wallpaper.bmp" width="320" /></span></a></div>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span><span style="font-family: inherit;">It is not surprising to me that one who hates God, who does not have the Spirit of God teaching him, and who is more apt to look for ways to justify his hate for God then to learn from Him finds the Word of God less than clear.<br /><br />The bible is no ordinary literary work. In fact it could not have been written by man.<br /><br />Amber asks why God would not give scientific proof when we diligently seek it. One wonders if Amber is using the word "<b><i><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/diligent" target="_blank">diligently</a></i></b>" the same way others do. There is endless scientific proof of God and His works.<br /><br />We'll start right in the Bible. <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2006/08/scientific-facts-concepts-in-bible.html" target="_blank">Here is an article I wrote in 2006 about scientific facts and concepts revealed in the Scripture long before scientists "discovered" them.</a></i></b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">For more recent discoveries watch Ian Juby's weekly program <b><i><a href="http://www.genesisweek.com/" target="_blank">Genesis Week</a></i></b>, and his <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN4YR_1kwL0&list=PL11166601CA0FB279" target="_blank">Complete Creation series</a></i></b>. Fossils way out of order in the record? Human foot prints fossilized inside of dinosaur foot prints? Humans found at the same time as dinosaurs? Irreducible complexity? Information in DNA? Evidence for design? Yes all of this and much much more is covered in detail and with humour in Ian's videos.</span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/04/ian-jubys-travelling-creation-museum.html" target="_blank">Here are some photographs I took of the evidence that Ian displays in his Travelling Creation Museum.</a></i></b><br /><br /><b><span style="color: red;">*CAUTION*</span></b> as nice and sincere a guy as Ian is, and I met him last year, his gospel is a false one.<br /><br />Of course there is a multitude of scientific evidence discussed, displayed, and explained at <b><i><a href="http://creation.com/">Creation.com</a></i></b><br /><br /><b><i><a href="http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-new-atheism-and-five-arguments-for-god" target="_blank">Here are five scientific and philosophical arguments for God. </a></i></b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">In fact there are so many resources, so easily available, that it is nothing less than blatant dishonesty to say there is no evidence or that science has disproved God.<br /><br />Yet Amber says:</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">No, this is too much to ask of the mysterious stranger.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Is it too much to ask for a little honesty from the Atheists? </span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">Instead, God opts to give us a book to communicate his divine plan. But oddly, he decides that the </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">most important</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> chapters—detailing the exploits of the primary protagonist—must be documented decades after the events, by authors who didn’t witness any of the said events.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">To say that the NT was written by people who did not witness the events is to be wilfully ignorant of the facts. Amber goes on to even more ignorance though:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">These “gospels” are then to be edited—some discarded completely—and compiled by </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">committee</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">. All the texts of this book must go through this process, and it must take hundreds of years to complete. Of course, the texts must be translated so that much of the intended meaning can be obscured.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">We have 5,000 manuscripts of the NT and 20 thousand fragments, which show that the NT has not changed one bit. We also have the Church Father's writings that we can re-build the entire NT except a few verses and also see that it has not change one bit. The OT is likewise supported. The Dead Sea Scrolls show that it has not changed either.<br /><br /><b><i><a href="http://creation.com/how-did-we-get-the-bible" target="_blank">Here is a short article on how we got the Bible.</a> </i></b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></b>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i><a href="http://castore.creation.com/catalog/how-did-we-get-our-bible-p-2141.html?osCsid=dun5b2h33efi4vb5h9bbf95sd4" target="_blank">Here is a book on the subject.</a></i> </b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><br /><i><a href="http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP084/" target="_blank">Here are some audio teachings on the subject of how we got the Bible.</a></i></b><br /><br />HOWEVER, Simply not changing is not enough to prove that it is reliable so, <b><i><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljpdg2pngho" target="_blank">here is Frank Turek on the reliability of the New Testament & the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.</a></i></b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber says that the people who wrote the Bible wouldn't be considered very bright by today's standards and so:</span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">It’s not surprising then that the bible is historically questionable, scientifically inaccurate, full of contradictions, and requires scholars for “proper” interpretation.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">It is so easy to make a claim when you don't have to back it up right? </span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i><a href="http://www.icr.org/biblical-record/" target="_blank">Here is some information on the historical accuracy of the Bible.</a></i></b><br /><br /><b><i><a href="http://carm.org/bible-difficulties" target="_blank">Here is some information on "contradictions" in the Bible...</a></i></b></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">A more complete coverage on the subject of Bible difficulties would be Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe's "<b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Book-Bible-Difficulties/dp/0801071585/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1381600981&sr=8-2&keywords=bible+difficulties" target="_blank">The Big Book of Bible </a></i></b><b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Book-Bible-Difficulties/dp/0801071585/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1381600981&sr=8-2&keywords=bible+difficulties" target="_blank">Difficulties</a></i></b>"<br /><br />There are no contradictions in the Scriptures. There are things which are difficult to understand. There are complexities which seem to be intentionally put in to catch people in their attacks on the Word. (What was written on the Lord's cross is a prime example.) I will grant that there are some numerical copiest errors and it is hard to decipher which are the correct numbers by Textual Criticism. These do not constitute contradictions in the Scripture but a failing of our Textual Criticism and translation to English. Further there are people who believe they can reconcile the numbers we find printed in English translations. I do not believe this is the case. I do have confidence that we will know which are the correct numbers before too long. <br /><br />As for "proper" interpretation their are endless cults who have private interpretations of the Scripture. But God says that no scripture is of private interpretation. <b>2Pet 1:20</b> The Bible says what it means and means what it says. The best practice to ensure you understand what the Scripture says is to use the <b><i><a href="http://disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Principles.htm" target="_blank">Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutic</a></i></b>. That is, basically, take it at its plain meaning. Read the Bible the same way you would read a letter from your Mom. The same way you'd read a technical manual.<br /><br />There is no secret key to understanding the Scriptures in some "proper" way. You simply obey the rules of grammar and use the meanings the original language</span></span><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"> words had at time the original autographs were written modified according to usage and context. It really isn't hard at all. It is harder to be honest in doing it (even for Believers) than it is to actually physically do. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber then makes the following claim:</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">Believers ... </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">must</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> concede ... the bible ... has been—and is being—used to justify bigotry, torture, the abjection of woman, slavery and war.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Please, I must ask Amber, what excuse does evil man <b><i>NOT USE</i></b> to justify these sorts of things? The fact is the Bible does not instruct people to do these kinds of things. It is those who practice the deceitful tactic of <b><i><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prooftext" target="_blank">Proof-Texting</a></i></b> (whether they are Atheists trying to twist the Bible or Religious people trying to do the same) in order to justify their own desires that are responsible for the evil they do.<br /><br />It is mankind that engages in evil. You ought to judge man for the evil he does. You cannot put the evil man does on the Bible for the Bible judges man for his evil and instructs man in righteousness.<br /><br />Amber then pipes triumphantly:</span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">This</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> is the Almighty’s best effort at clearly documenting his master plan. How can one accept such incompetence?</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">You write something like the Scriptures Amber and then talk about incompetence. </span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggN75nIktIA" style="font-family: inherit; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;" target="_blank">Check this video.</a><span style="font-family: inherit;"> The Scriptures are a singular work. You could never hope to come close to what they are Amber. You, or any person, are simply incapable of producing a work that predicts future history, speaks authoritatively on subjects that upset people revealing righteousness where the bent of man is to desire sin, which is penned by 40 men over nearly 1600 years by people of all different kinds of life styles on different continents at different times most of whom never met each other and all speak with a singular voice! Add in the </span>Hepatic<span style="font-family: inherit;"> Structure of the Scriptures, the encrypted messages... Go ahead give it your best shot! I double-dog dare ya!</span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;">Next Amber riles on about faith. He spins a tale about faith being most important, that it is a virtue even.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;">Yet in </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">Rom 4:16 </b><span style="font-family: inherit;">we find that faith is completely without reward. It is not something to be celebrated or admired. </span></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber continues about faith:</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">But it’s </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">not</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> evidence. It’s belief in the </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">absence</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> of evidence. It’s wish thinking.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Oh Dear Soul how wrong you are! Just because Richard Dawkins likes to say that Christians have a faith that is belief in the absence of evidence doesn't mean that is what Christians engage in. It's a fanciful straw-man that speaks to the prejudice of his audience, and nothing more.<br /><br />We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because of what we know, not because of what we don't know. Not because of what we hope to be true. We have hope - which in the passage you quote Heb 1 means a sure expectation not simply a desired outcome - because of what we know. We don't "want" or "desire" a future that the Lord promises - we hope for it, which is to say we eagerly expect it! Anticipation, not wishful thinking. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber continues his point:</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">And don’t forget, if we use our brilliantly “designed” brain-machine, and act reasonably by doubting and demanding evidence other than subjective experiences—which are fickle and unreliable at best—we are guilty of a crime so terrible that we face eternal torment as punishment. Some </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">loving</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> God.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">If your brain wasn't brilliantly designed what reason would you have to trust your own thinking Amber? If your brain is just a bunch of chemical reactions which have been brought together by random chance then you have no REASON to believe you are even capable of reasoning. You have no logical reason to expect your reasoning to be reasonable.<br /><br />My subjective experience is not a reason for you to believe, any more than YOUR SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE is a reason for me not to believe. Let this sink in.<br /><br />That I have met God, that I know Him personally, that I have tested the Scriptures and found them sure, that I have studied science, philosophy, and history and therein found good evidence for God and His working, that I have experience undeniable answers to prayer and His orchestration of events in my life - is not a reason for you to believe in Him. It may well be a reason for you to find out if His claims are true, but it is not enough for you to believe. I may be lying. I may be deluded. I may be mistaken. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Likewise, your subjective experience whereby you have found absolutely no evidence for God and thought you were a Christian and didn't like it is no reason for me not to believe. You may be lying. You may never have looked for evidence. You may have rejected all the good evidence that is readily available to you. You may not have actually BEEN a Christian. And so on... </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">My subjective experience is mine. It is for me. Deal with it. <br /><br />God is loving. He loved you in this way Amber. While you were an enemy of His. While you were loving your sin. While you were hating Him. While you were doing everything you could to keep people away from Him. He gave His only begotten Son, so that you might live. While you hated Him, He loved you. </span></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Amber, no doubt thinking he has made a check-mate, continues:</span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">Why would God be so evasive and such a phenomenally incompetent communicator, if it will only bring him hurt? Perhaps, the devil foils his plans. If only God was all-powerful. </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">Oh wait</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">.</span> </i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">As has already been shown, God is not evasive at all. He has presented Himself openly for all mankind. The problem here is that like all God-haters Amber is not seeking God. He is serving the god of this age, the enemy of his soul. What a terrible and terrifying moment it will be when Amber, should he not repent in time, will find himself standing before the Lord Jesus Christ only to bow down and confess He is indeed the LORD, then be judged by his works and cast into the Lake of Fire. <b>Rom 14:11; Phil 2:9-11; Rev 20:11-15</b> </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">The Fertile Earth of a Child</span></i></b> </span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">I was raised Christian, and I regularly went to Sunday school.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">This is a failed understanding. You cannot be raised Christian. You can be raised by Christian parents and witnessed to, but you cannot be "raised Christian." Every sinner must be born again in order to BECOME a Christian.<br /><br />Instead of being raised by parents devoted to witnessing to their child and teaching him to think critically and hold fast that which is good we read him talk about how much he hated to go to Church. How he riled against it, and came up with all kinds of devious plans to avoid going. </span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic;">I tried—with all the ingenuity of a child—to avoid going. </span>[to Sunday School]<i>....</i></span><span style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> I </span><span style="border: 0px; color: #274e13; font-style: italic; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">really</span><span style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> hated going to children’s church; I'm not sure why.</span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">It is sad that kids get forced to go to some church that the parents don't even believe the message the kids are being taught. This is mostly sad because the parents not being invested in what is actually being taught almost always leads to the child being taught falsehoods. </span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">The teachers intended well, I’m sure. They didn’t try to frighten us with hell—like the Catholics are known to do—but they did teach us about heaven, and kids are clever, you know. If good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Children are clever. Yet, if these "teachers" were telling the kids that good people go to Heaven then these "teachers" were lying to the children. There simply are no good people, Christians or not.<br /><br />Amber describes a formative incident in his young life. </span></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic; line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">There was a dramatic change in my family when I was about seven or eight. One Sunday morning my father joined us for church—<b>a rare occurrence</b>—and halfway through the service <b>he started crying</b>. It had upset me at the time; my father </span><span style="border: 0px; color: #274e13; font-style: italic; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">never</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="color: #274e13;"> cried. I learned later that </i><b style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic;">my father had been an atheist,</b><i style="color: #274e13;"> and that </i><b style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic;">he had prayed the night before, “I’m going to church tomorrow. If you’re real, prove it.”</b><i style="color: #274e13;"> God’s proof was that my father—being a hard man—couldn’t contain his emotions and stop crying. </i><b style="color: #274e13; font-style: italic;">I suspect my dad became a Christian for reasons similar to mine.</b><i style="color: #274e13;"> I will say this though, his conversion more than likely saved his marriage, but proof of God it’s not. </i>[Emphasis added]</span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">I can't say for sure if his father ever became a Christian or not. I know that if you sincerely pray a prayer like his father did that God will answer it. Amber's conversion story, with the exception of the emotional response, doesn't seem to be like his dad's. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">It is interesting though, and perhaps his dad really did become a Christian because next we read:</span></span><br />
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<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">It wasn’t long after this event that we upgraded from the Dutch Reformed Church—who, as an aside, has still not renounced its support of the apartheid ideology—to a more evangelical and radical church called Agape Ministries or some such. </i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">It isn't uncommon for God to make radical changes in the lives of those He saves. However we read that there was no solid foundation of an assembly they could trust and grow in for the family.</span><br />
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<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">From my pre to late teens, we moved to four or five different churches. From Agape, to Emmanuel, to I can’t be arsed to remember. Each one of the churches ended in scandal. The pastor was gay, or a fraud or reasonable. Spare a thought for the men of God; they are devil hounded, don’t you know.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">Pastors, and anyone who seeks to lead God's children ARE targets of Satan. What is less known, and even less than that accepted, is that if these men try to do it alone, if they try to be One-Man-Show Leaders instead of depending on a plurality of leaders then Satan almost always wins the day and crushes the man who thought he could stand on his own.<br /><br />Sin easily besets a man. Any man. Any woman. <b>1Cor 10:13; Heb 12:1-2</b> Denying this fact and trying to live a life as though it were not true is not obeying the Scriptures, it is practicing a false religion that has no hope (expectation) but failure.<br /><br />Amber himself gives good testimony to indicate to us that he never was a Christian at all. His confusion about this is based in the fact that he does not realize that a Christian is a new creation. It is something you become, not something you join or sign up for. He writes:</span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">Strangely, throughout all my years in church I never really committed to it. I was forced to go, but I wasn’t buying what they were selling.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">If you don't love the Brethren there's little chance you have the love of God in you. <b>John 13:35; 1Jn 3:14-17; 1Jn 4:20-21</b></span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><b><i>Shameful Things</i></b></span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">In this section we find some stated and some implied confessions from Amber. Perhaps I am just untrusting but I can't help but feel baited as I read his words. </span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">There was the before-mentioned gay experience, which was a source of confusion and shame, but at least it’s not something I now find morally objectionable or shameful like some of the things I did in my late teens.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">One wonders if the other things Amber is still ashamed of were the subject of such a propaganda effort if he would still feel shame about them either. Check out <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Queer-Thing-Happened-America-ebook/dp/B0052UOSYC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381622472&sr=8-1&keywords=a+queer+thing+happened+to+america" target="_blank">A Queer Thing Happened To America.</a></i></b> </span></span><br />
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<i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">We considered ourselves better than other people, and we adopted a </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">fuck the world </span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">philosophy. ... Influenced by the Anarchist’s Cookbook, and its like, we performed criminal acts of vandalism. We did shameful things, and I was—I am—ashamed.</span></span></i></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">It is normal, if not right, that Amber allowed his natural desires to drive his actions to sin. What is terrible is that he does not need to carry that shame any more, yet he does. If he wold but repent, admit his guilt before a holy God who loves him, that same God would save him. The same God he was sinning against back then, and is sinning against right now. Amber, not unlike the rest of us, is and was evil, did and does evil. He does not have to love his evil however, yet still he does.<br /><br /><b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">The Power of Guilt, Shame and Fear</span></i></b></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber talks about how he got a girlfriend eventually; the ex from the dramatic story in the introduction as it turns out. When it was time for him to leave for university:</span></span><br />
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<span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">It was decided that a long distance relationship wouldn’t work, but I missed her, and I desperately wished to get back together. It was my first holiday back in my hometown when she led me to Christ. I had spent the day with her, and I naturally had high hopes. It would be a kindness to say that she was a cold fish. I was hurt and confused—I didn’t know at the time that she fancied one of my best friends.</i></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;">The influence of young love is powerful. The loss of it leaves a young man feeling helpless and hopeless. </span><br />
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<span style="color: #274e13; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">I phoned her that evening. The otherwise uninteresting conversation was given a shot of adrenalin when she, out of left field, challenged my relationship with God. It hit me like a ton of bricks. Half an hour later, I found myself in a car, parked outside my house with her praying for me. The floodgates had opened, and I couldn’t control my emotions. I cried, and thought </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">God is at work.</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> The parallel to my father’s conversion didn’t escape me. Such is the power of </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">guilt,</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">shame</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;"> and </span><span style="border: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: baseline;">fear</span><span style="line-height: 18px; text-align: justify;">.</span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Amber was never a Christian. You don't become a Christian by someone praying for you. You don't become a Christian because you, in a broken hearted plea for attention from a lost love, "accept Jesus into your heart." No matter if you were challenged by her about your relationship with God or not.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: inherit;">These religious experiences are emotional though. They feel powerful. The Devil wants it to be just like that so that when you eventually wake up you'll think you have experienced all there is to faith in Christ. He wants you to think of yourself at that time as a <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Stupid Stupid Boy"</span></i> (as Amber puts it.) He wants you to be so </span>embarrassed<span style="font-family: inherit;"> that you'll never <b><i>ever</i></b> want to be fooled like that again.</span></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #274e13;"><i><span style="font-family: inherit;">I had found a scapegoat, and the relief was blissful. No, I didn’t stand a chance.</span></i></span> </span></blockquote>
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<span style="color: #274e13;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span><span style="font-family: inherit;">It took me seven years to come to my senses. </span></i></span></blockquote>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: inherit;"><b>In Conclusion </b>(this is my title, as his article is completed above)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">I know that Amber's conversion was a false one because it does not match what Scripture says. He may have played a part as a Christian but he never became one. He may have attended church and tried to tell people about Jesus but he was never Born Again. </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Should you want to know what the Scripture says about how one becomes a Christian I invite you to read <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/p/the-doctrine-of-salvation-soteriology.html" target="_blank">The Doctrine of Salvation</a></i></b>. </span></span><br />
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I will gladly discuss the implications of the things discussed in this article in the comments. I will discuss salvation and perhaps some doctrines in the Scriptures in the comments.</span><br />
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I will not be debating, or allowing the debate of, the existence of God. There is no debate, and I won't blaspheme God by pretending that there is. Amber knows there is a God and he knows a lot of things about that God. He doesn't doubt, or even disbelieve His existence. He hates the God who created him. I know this first and foremost from<b> Romans 1:18-32</b>, and I know it secondly by inductive reasoning because Amber hates God. You can't hate what you don't believe exists.</span><br />
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Amber, though you hate God, He loves you. He offers you freedom at no cost to you. Believe and live Dear Soul, believe and live. I plead with you.<br /><br /><b>UPDATE:</b> Amber Responds.<br /><br />Amber wrote a response to this article which can be found <b><i><a href="http://amrestorative.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/response-to-a-critique-by-kevin-lane/" target="_blank">RIGHT HERE</a></i></b>. When my short response to Amber's response (if this goes on the titles could get very tedious) will be linked <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2013/10/amber-strikes-back.html" target="_blank">RIGHT HERE</a></i></b> when it is published. </span><br />
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><br /></span>
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;">To avoid tedium I've titled my response as <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2013/10/amber-strikes-back.html" target="_blank">"Amber Strikes Back."</a></i></b> </span>Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-90124749862927470992013-10-11T17:05:00.001-03:002013-10-11T17:09:03.946-03:00The Doctrine of Salvation<span style="font-family: inherit;">I have been trying to get my personal Statement of Faith done for some time. For now I am going to replace that effort with this post about the Doctrine of Salvation. This article comes out of a larger document that was authored for the ministry I work with earlier this year.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><span style="font-size: 16.0pt;"><br /></span></b>
</span><br />
<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/p/the-doctrine-of-salvation-soteriology.html" style="font-weight: bold;" target="_blank">Please see The Doctrine of Salvation (Soteriology) page above, or click here.</a><br /><br />Here is a quotation:</span><br />
<b><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></b>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">OVERVIEW</b><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;">: Salvation, including Justification, Reconciliation, and Glorification, is accomplished by Grace alone and accessed through Faith alone in Christ alone, completely apart from works. That is to say that Salvation is the Gift of God brought to man by unmerited favor alone, and received by personal faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, whose substitutionary atonement fully reconciles all those who believe in Him to God completely apart from works. </span><b style="background-color: #f3f3f3; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;"><span style="color: blue;"><a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Eph 1.7" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Eph%201.7" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Eph 1:7</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Eph 2.8-9" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Eph%202.8-9" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Eph 2:8-9</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Jn 1.13" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jn%201.13" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Jn 1:13</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="1Pet 1.18-19" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1Pet%201.18-19" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">1Pet 1:18-19</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Rom 3.19-28" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%203.19-28" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Rom 3:19-28</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Rom 4.1-8" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.1-8" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Rom 4:1-8</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Rom 4.16" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.16" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Rom 4:16</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Ps 32.1-2" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ps%2032.1-2" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Ps 32:1-2</a>, <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Rom 5.1-2" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%205.1-2" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Rom 5:1-2</a>; Isa 53; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Isa 55.1-3" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isa%2055.1-3" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Isa 55:1-3</a>; Lev 16; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Acts 13.38-39" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%2013.38-39" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Acts 13:38-39</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="Gal 2.16" data-version="nkjv" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%202.16" style="color: #01689c; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Gal 2:16</a></span></b></blockquote>
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<!--EndFragment-->Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-49331432213401902042013-09-24T19:50:00.000-03:002013-09-24T19:53:09.213-03:00Evidence Cannot Convince the Unwilling<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhLVG-xwNEyDT36Yh_4GVbjqZxufRjLgXUPsFLhG7QTPwetQdbUAf-y1-QhJP_NdJv3__rfqPgf5sGOd4q9UY01VRcOJeRIoWCi7U2aS9w2VcOkKAHxi2KAPX8gm-gF64FwsiWCPg/s1600/Big_brick.png" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" height="289" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhLVG-xwNEyDT36Yh_4GVbjqZxufRjLgXUPsFLhG7QTPwetQdbUAf-y1-QhJP_NdJv3__rfqPgf5sGOd4q9UY01VRcOJeRIoWCi7U2aS9w2VcOkKAHxi2KAPX8gm-gF64FwsiWCPg/s320/Big_brick.png" width="320" /></span></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">What HAPPENED?</span></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /><b>Matt 11:20-24 </b></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Matt-11-20"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">20 </span>Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: </span><span class="text Matt-11-21" id="en-NKJV-23481"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">21 </span><span class="woj">“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-11-22" id="en-NKJV-23482"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">22 </span><span class="woj">But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-11-23" id="en-NKJV-23483"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">23 </span><span class="woj">And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be</span><span class="woj"> brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-11-24" id="en-NKJV-23484"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">24 </span><span class="woj">But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”</span></span></i></b></span></span></blockquote>
<b><span style="font-family: inherit;">Matt 23:37-39</span></b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Matt-23-37"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">37 </span><span class="woj">“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!</span></span><span class="text Matt-23-38" id="en-NKJV-23957"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">38 </span><span class="woj">See! Your house is left to you desolate;</span> </span><span class="text Matt-23-39" id="en-NKJV-23958"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">39 </span><span class="woj">for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed isHe who comes in the name of the <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>!’ ”</span></span></i></b></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">So as the reader reading this you may realize, as I just have, how long it has been since my last article. Upon realizing this fact, you may ask "What happened?"; whether for what has kept me away so much this year, or whether what happened to <b><i>cause</i></b> me finally write a new one. </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />I'll tell you what happened, what <b><i>caused</i></b> this article to be written. It was the event of a Militant Twitter Atheist(MTA), who calls himself Shaun, denying the Law of Causality.<br /><br />Now MTA Shaun is one of those "Atheists" who do everything they can possibly do to avoid having to support any claim. He was one of a group of MTAs who jumped on a friend's Tweet. I asked them all: "If Christianity were true would you become a Christian today?" MTA Shaun answered this way:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgXaQc3Ioo_uVxZ9UIiMEJrg3VHANp0Ie-Cxo8Xvb_K7e0XY74L8YLdu3vJgMO8miInRSNQT6txHoIepYzL7vqynCY6_ifB2wJ76zIVW1dDeT3_rTqgEyHgEjBlHfjQzYWm64vf1Q/s1600/ss3-yes.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgXaQc3Ioo_uVxZ9UIiMEJrg3VHANp0Ie-Cxo8Xvb_K7e0XY74L8YLdu3vJgMO8miInRSNQT6txHoIepYzL7vqynCY6_ifB2wJ76zIVW1dDeT3_rTqgEyHgEjBlHfjQzYWm64vf1Q/s1600/ss3-yes.png" /></a><br /><br />We had a short discussion about prophecy. He responded that even true prophecy which preemptively proclaims the history of the World would not be proof of God. His attitude, and how he interacted with me and others exposed the fallacy of his answer to me. Here's an example of something he said to someone else during the same time he was discussing things with me: </span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh3opqwgVVdpM72LbM-p0BPDwzLVnXh7T3_Osr3G_K82C3x3JNEluH-7N38by1kBRz2fe1bhriyb-jARjmiCp5K5vmbX7EjWtfQ2ZWaEcSpSI_NAhRgLVZcETClkT7TX7tlN9AR1Q/s1600/ss4-BS.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh3opqwgVVdpM72LbM-p0BPDwzLVnXh7T3_Osr3G_K82C3x3JNEluH-7N38by1kBRz2fe1bhriyb-jARjmiCp5K5vmbX7EjWtfQ2ZWaEcSpSI_NAhRgLVZcETClkT7TX7tlN9AR1Q/s1600/ss4-BS.png" /></span></a></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Now this wasn't my first time to the rodeo with a MTA. I was well aware that he was baiting me for an argument and was going to avoid answering any questions or supporting any claims. I was careful not to make specific claims about the existence of God. Instead I focused on the FACT that Shaun knows that God exists as well as I do. Rom 1:18-32 I demonstrated this to Shaun when I told him that he hates God. Shaun replied that he can't hate who he doesn't believe in. I replied that I agreed with that statement, but that his Twitter feed easily demonstrates his hate for the God of the Bible.<br /><br />Now here's the thing. Shaun is one of those MTA's who claim that the term "<b><i><a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/" target="_blank">Atheist</a></i></b>" (Stanford) "<b><i><a href="http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/a9.htm#athe" target="_blank">Atheist</a></i></b>" (Philosophy Pages) "<b><i><a href="http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095431374" target="_blank">Atheist</a></i></b>" (Oxford) means someone who "<b><i><a href="http://www.lackofbelief.com/" target="_blank">lacks a belief in a god</a></i></b>" (Lackofbelief.com) not someone who denies the existence of God. Folks, this is one of the best indications that you are wasting your time speaking to someone who claims the title Atheist. The sole reason for this definition is to avoid making any claims so that they don't feel the need to defend anything they say. Now if someone THINKS that is the definition of Atheist (or Atheism) but allows you to correct them so that they understand they are actually an Agnostic then they may well be someone worth having a discussion with. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjwApgARr6mt0r2v481i35qqoOMyrL0YlFrbbtX405xflNLDSzUXb1PFGUUwmHx3yR8PqiV-NP-jP6zfTXJp8_KESCw0AprFFEokWpu0Q_u06QgUkMMU8jd9Gp2iGtRd04LNMsnhw/s1600/ss1.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjwApgARr6mt0r2v481i35qqoOMyrL0YlFrbbtX405xflNLDSzUXb1PFGUUwmHx3yR8PqiV-NP-jP6zfTXJp8_KESCw0AprFFEokWpu0Q_u06QgUkMMU8jd9Gp2iGtRd04LNMsnhw/s1600/ss1.png" /></a></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: inherit;">Nonetheless he had made a number of claims by mistake, but these three were the ones I pressed him about. </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">1. That he (Shaun) would become a Christian if Christianity were true.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">2. That God is my imaginary friend (therefore does not exist). </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">3. That I/Anyone do not/cannot know that God exists.<br /><br />He did his best to avoid supporting these claims. He repeatedly stated that he didn't make them or that he was mistaken with his language. He claimed that when he wrote that no one can know that God exists, that he meant that I (Kevin) did not know. I asked him to offer any proof for either statement... he refused to do so.<br /><br />Eventually however, I did slip up and directly state that God exists. So I, in order to remain honourable, had to provide a defence. So I sent him a link to this video on the Kalam Cosmological Argument.</span><br />
<object class="BLOGGER-youtube-video" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" data-thumbnail-src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/Gg9q_N0WpHU/0.jpg" height="266" width="320"><param name="movie" value="http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/Gg9q_N0WpHU&source=uds" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed width="320" height="266" src="http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/Gg9q_N0WpHU&source=uds" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">To which Shaun replied with:</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqYMFtoRX6pp_-LuHGtvC-HysDKgi01p7FLyZ1BUbfkwcf5OGp_4zv72ShhLEW0cLeMMdT6e9VR4WZp1wAGiE4mjCqZgFG6GXEyDb6vgC0VV2Rz2PtK1zzDa_Fs-XSSs0YBKN-1g/s1600/ss5-Cos.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqYMFtoRX6pp_-LuHGtvC-HysDKgi01p7FLyZ1BUbfkwcf5OGp_4zv72ShhLEW0cLeMMdT6e9VR4WZp1wAGiE4mjCqZgFG6GXEyDb6vgC0VV2Rz2PtK1zzDa_Fs-XSSs0YBKN-1g/s1600/ss5-Cos.png" /></span></a></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b><i><a href="http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Cosmological_argument" target="_blank">Here's the page he linked me to.</a></i></b> It is a long winded refutation of something the author of the page CALLS the Cosmological Argument. Here is the argument as detailed on this page.</span><br />
<div style="line-height: 19.1875px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: 0.4em;">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">The argument runs like this:</span></span></div>
<ol style="line-height: 19.1875px; list-style-image: none; margin: 0.3em 0px 0px 3.2em; padding: 0px;">
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Everything that exists must have a cause.</span></span></li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">If you follow the chain of events backwards through time, it cannot go back infinitely, so eventually you arrive at the first cause.</span></span></li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">This cause must, itself, be uncaused.</span></span></li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">But nothing can exist without a cause, except for God.</span></span></li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Therefore, God exists.</span></span></li>
</ol>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />Now you can compare this argument with the video yourself, but here is the actual argument that I provided the MTA. </span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="background-color: yellow; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">The Kalam Cosmological Argument</span></span></b><br />
<ol>
<li><b style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Whatever
begins to exist has a cause</span></b></li>
</ol>
<ol>
<li><b style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">The universe
began to exist</span></b></li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li><b><span style="font-family: inherit;">Therefore:
the universe had a Cause.</span></b></li>
</ul>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Everyday experience and scientific evidence confirm premise 1.<br /> <o:p> </o:p>2<sup>nd</sup> Law of Thermal Dynamics tells us that
the universe is slowly running out of usable energy. Therefore if the universe
was eternal it would be out of energy.<br /> <o:p> </o:p>Albert Einstein, Alexandra Friedmann, Georges
Lemaitre, Edwin Hubble,<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>all showed that
the universe is expanding from a single point in the finite past.<br /> <br />
All alternative models for an eternal universe have all failed under scientific
testing.<br /> <br />
In 2003 three cosmologists, Arvind Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin
proved that any universe that has on average throughout it’s history been
expanding cannot be eternal in the past, and must have an absolute beginning.
This includes the theorized Multi-verse.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"><br />
</span><br />
Science has proven that the universe has had a beginning.<br /> <br /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Therefore the universe had a cause.</b> <br />
Because this Cause must be outside of Space-Time this Cause must be:<br /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Spaceless, Timeless, Immaterial,
Uncaused and Powerful</b></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Obviously the page the MTA linked to didn't even come close to "refuting" the argument posed by the video I had linked him to. He eventually agreed, at least in passing, that the page did not actually address the argument. He didn't go so far as to agree that it was a <b><i><a href="http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/straw.htm" target="_blank">Straw-Man</a></i></b>, but he did then try to engage the argument albeit dishonestly. After a number of tweets back and forth he finally watched the video. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh61XOpRbieG-4EK79gwkg4gr7SvnOhzfXvlhhlEddmgJLatKXDt7r2uXaFLKabHEWaS8-0Hoap929tpVg7KhN2_vIC5e96TfcmkzF6zLGewMmu-yoxeibc3R_dLitjvj4K9H7yAQ/s1600/ss6-watchedit.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh61XOpRbieG-4EK79gwkg4gr7SvnOhzfXvlhhlEddmgJLatKXDt7r2uXaFLKabHEWaS8-0Hoap929tpVg7KhN2_vIC5e96TfcmkzF6zLGewMmu-yoxeibc3R_dLitjvj4K9H7yAQ/s1600/ss6-watchedit.png" /></a></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />His response to the video is to ask me to prove the <b><i><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_(physics)" target="_blank">Law of Causality</a></i></b>. Causality, or Cause & Effect, is the basis for science. As Turek and Geisler write in I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist: Even the great skeptic David Hume could not deny the Law of Causality. He wrote <b><i><span style="color: #38761d;">"I never asserted so absurd a proposition as that something could arise without a cause."</span></i></b> (David Hume, in J.Y.T. Greig, ed., The Letters of David Hume, 2 vols. (New York: Garland, 1983), 1:187)<br /><br />I found Shaun's response amusing and asked him if he was really so desperate not to repent that he would deny the Law of Causality. He responded with these tweets:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">
<br />and <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
This MTA had jumped on a friend of mine to try to start an argument. I took up the bait and replied to him. He claimed to have a worldview that is based on the evidence, and when asked about that all he would say is that he doesn't believe in God because there is no evidence for Him.<br />
<br />
In reality this article has little to do with Shaun. He's just another in a long list of "lack of belief" Atheists.<br />
<br />
The point of this article is this: just as the Lord Jesus Christ explained that those who had seen His powerful signs (miracles) and not believed would come under strict judgment - and therefore they had been UNWILLING to believe even with this powerful evidence - there are people who are UNWILLING and so will never believe even if you give them very good evidence for God. <br />
<br />
In the end we know that EVERYONE already believes that God exists, and we know much about Him just by looking at Creation. <b>Romans 1:18-32</b> explains the same things that the Kalam Cosmological Argument does. <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i> <span class="text Rom-1-18"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">18 </span>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, </span><span class="text Rom-1-19" id="en-NKJV-27950"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">19 </span>because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. </span><span class="text Rom-1-20" id="en-NKJV-27951"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">20 </span>For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, </span><span class="text Rom-1-21" id="en-NKJV-27952"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">21 </span>because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. </span><span class="text Rom-1-22" id="en-NKJV-27953"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">22 </span>Professing to be wise, they became fools,</span><span class="text Rom-1-23" id="en-NKJV-27954"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">23 </span>and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.</span></i></b></span></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Rom-1-23" id="en-NKJV-27954"></span></i></b></span></span><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Rom-1-24" id="en-NKJV-27955"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">24 </span>Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, </span><span class="text Rom-1-25" id="en-NKJV-27956"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">25 </span>who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.</span></i></b></span></span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Rom-1-25" id="en-NKJV-27956"></span></i></b></span></span><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Rom-1-26" id="en-NKJV-27957"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">26 </span>For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. </span><span class="text Rom-1-27" id="en-NKJV-27958"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">27 </span>Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.</span></i></b></span></span><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Rom-1-28" id="en-NKJV-27959"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">28 </span>And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; </span><span class="text Rom-1-29" id="en-NKJV-27960"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">29 </span>being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,</span><span class="text Rom-1-30" id="en-NKJV-27961"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">30 </span>backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, </span><span class="text Rom-1-31" id="en-NKJV-27962"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">31 </span>undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; </span><span class="text Rom-1-32" id="en-NKJV-27963"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">32 </span>who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.</span></i></b></span></span></blockquote>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-24765978799319323982013-07-08T19:09:00.000-03:002013-07-08T19:09:15.492-03:00You shall know them, who?<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgxd_nfNK_jrVAcFjeKwYeUENAYHOdfQMKxL6Rb4mgVLWR6TM8WxW4xa59Tx_loUY5SfUUWbu4-O66eVIWxHE0xKME_UcaIP3E-2w5TbQf7l8CSx2xMccoylQuBZbjxZMyu16kAuA/s1600/jonadab_Wolf_in_Sheep_s_Clothing.png" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="247" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgxd_nfNK_jrVAcFjeKwYeUENAYHOdfQMKxL6Rb4mgVLWR6TM8WxW4xa59Tx_loUY5SfUUWbu4-O66eVIWxHE0xKME_UcaIP3E-2w5TbQf7l8CSx2xMccoylQuBZbjxZMyu16kAuA/s320/jonadab_Wolf_in_Sheep_s_Clothing.png" width="320" /></a></div>
Have you ever heard someone apply <b>Matt 7:16-19</b> to determining who is a "true convert" and who is a "false convert"?<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Matt-7-16" id="en-NKJV-23333"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">16 </span><span class="woj">You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?</span> </span><span class="text Matt-7-17" id="en-NKJV-23334"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">17 </span><span class="woj">Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-7-18" id="en-NKJV-23335"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">18 </span><span class="woj">A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, norcan a bad tree bear good fruit.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-7-19" id="en-NKJV-23336"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">19 </span><span class="woj">Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.</span> </span><span class="text Matt-7-20" id="en-NKJV-23337"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">20 </span><span class="woj">Therefore by their fruits you will know them.</span></span></i></b></span></blockquote>
I have. I have heard these verses used this way many, many times. This concept is taught by Reformed teachers, and in Reformed theological schools. When I do I normally try to use the verses they way the person claims they are to be used. I test myself, and ask them to test themselves, by the concept they say is true.<br /><br />I have to admit that SOMETIMES I get haughty when I do this. Depending on how frustrating I find the person I'm discussing it with. Sometimes Reformed people get under my skin in a big way, and as much as I find them haughty I myself get haughty as I take them through the verses. I should not but I admit that I do, sometimes.<br /><br />Let's pretend the concept that the Lord is explaining in <b>Matt 7:16-19</b> is that we can tell who is saved and who is not by their "fruit." Let's all take the "test" to see if we are "true converts" or "false converts" OK?<br /><br /><br />
Vs 16 says we will know "them" by their fruits, and fruits is explained as being what they produce using the illustration of what different trees produce, or what grows on them naturally. OK <b>Test One:</b> What do we (you and I) produce? What sort of things naturally or normally just pop up in our (yours and mine) life? <br /><br /><b>My Result: </b>I've got mine in mind. <b>Do you?</b><br /><br />Vs 17 makes two strong points. Every good tree bares good fruit and every bad tree bares bad fruit. OK <b>Test Two:</b> Do we bare good fruit? Does good fruit naturally occur in our (mine and your) life? Yes I do, and yes it does. What about you? OK <b>Test Three:</b> Does bad fruit naturally occur in our (mine and your) life? Yes it does in mine.<br /><br /><b>My Result: </b>I bare both good and bad fruit. So far as Vs 17 is concerned I could be either a true or false convert. What about you?<br />
<br />
Vs 18 takes it to the next level. So to speak.. A good tree "cannot" bare bad fruit and a bad tree "cannot" bare good fruit. OK Test Four and Test Five are exactly the same as Test Two and Test Three.<br /><br /><b>My Result: </b><u>Cannot calculate a result.</u> According to Vs 18 a good tree cannot bare bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bare good fruit. I bare both, which according to Vs 18 is impossible IF the concept put forth that these verses are a test of who is a true convert or not is true. What about you?<br /><br />Sometimes the Reformed person (or whoever) will go back to their theology instead of the verse. They will say that it is a concept in general, and not so hard and fast. This is by far the most popular response to my taking the person through the verses as the test they say <b><i><u>they tell me</u></i></b> the verses are. Yet the verses ARE hard and fast. There is no wiggle room in them. No "generalities" no "direction not perfection" no not at all the Lord makes an absolute statement about both.<br /><br />When I point out that the Lord doesn't speak of generalities but of absolutes they will sometimes bring up the idea that a present tense word means an ongoing action. So their logic goes like this: A true convert will continue to bare good fruit, but not continue to bare bad fruit, a false convert will continue to bare bad fruit but will not continue to bare good fruit.<br /><br />This will then lead me to ask how a false convert can produce good fruit at all, if he will "not continue in baring good fruit." The Lord said that unless we "abide in Him" we can do nothing, and I'm sure that there is no false convert "abiding in Christ." <b>Jn 15:5</b> Now sometimes the Reformed person is clever and prepared to answer this. He or she will say that if one never produces good fruit that they will certainly not continue in producing good fruit. However, this is abusing the language of the Lord and does not translate to the same prohibition on good trees producing bad fruit. It is using different interpretation where it is convenient for one's theology to do so. That is using your theology to interpret the Bible, not the Bible to determine your theology.<br /><br />It is plain that the passage doesn't "work" as a test of true converts vs false converts. This leads us to the question that SHOULD be asked long, long before we ever get into such a big discussion.<br /><br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<b><i><span style="font-size: large;">Them who?</span></i></b> </div>
<br />Vs 16 says <i><b><span style="color: #990000;">"You shall know them by their fruits..."</span></b></i> Wouldn't it be wise to know who the "them" is? Who the Lord says He is talking about instead of who our theology says it is about? OF COURSE IT WOULD BE WISE TO DO SO. So let's back all the way up to Vs 15.<br /><br /><b>Mat 7:15</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">15 </span><span class="woj">Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
Well there you go. The Lord isn't talking about true of false converts at all. He says He is warning us about <b><i><a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5578&t=KJV" target="_blank">false prophets</a></i></b>, and how to tell who they are.<br /><br />No need for me to get haughty. No reason for debate. No reason for misunderstanding. The Lord is crystal clear.<br /><br />So what is His point? <b>Mat 7:24-29</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><i><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="text Matt-7-24"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">24 </span><span class="woj">“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:</span> </span><span class="text Matt-7-25" id="en-NKJV-23342"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">25 </span><span class="woj">and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.</span></span></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="text Matt-7-26" id="en-NKJV-23343"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">26 </span><span class="woj">“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:</span> </span><span class="text Matt-7-27" id="en-NKJV-23344"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">27 </span><span class="woj">and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”</span></span></span><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="text Matt-7-28" id="en-NKJV-23345"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">28 </span>And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, </span><span class="text Matt-7-29" id="en-NKJV-23346"><span class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">29 </span>for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.</span></span></span></i></b></blockquote>
The Lord Jesus Christ is the true prophet and His words are dependable. In fact they are life! <b>Jn 6:63</b><br />
<br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-79496612532396539962013-06-29T18:29:00.000-03:002013-07-04T19:27:47.251-03:00One Aspect of Christianity With Absolutely No Freedom<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFTV3PmOVkkDDj8ceTzCj4akF8bZbo3PxVFNHHZLWXc_IaAOwZkooyXzCKO-7ZNzTvojJPCqeH_fhlrd7cGWhRP0Zn2Pclirt-x_0cmlmPPs944Vzfm_K9IRgNgc_38X6cebI0wQ/s400/Street-blog.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFTV3PmOVkkDDj8ceTzCj4akF8bZbo3PxVFNHHZLWXc_IaAOwZkooyXzCKO-7ZNzTvojJPCqeH_fhlrd7cGWhRP0Zn2Pclirt-x_0cmlmPPs944Vzfm_K9IRgNgc_38X6cebI0wQ/s320/Street-blog.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Here I am sharing the Gospel with a large intimidating man<br />
on a street in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada<br />
sometime in Nov or Dec of 2012</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
Without a doubt there is absolute freedom for the Believer in Christ. There is no list of rules to follow found in Scripture in order to be "Christian." Paul tells us, in <b>1Cor 14:32</b> that prophecy is subject to the Prophets, and I take this to mean that prophets (be them preachers or those who have a "word from God") are not expected to be perfectly accurate all the time. Paul also tells us that all things are permissible even though not all things are helpful. <b>1Cor 6:12 1Cor 10:23</b> Here he speaks of eating & drinking and doing things. It is a correction of legalism that some would burden Believers with.<br />
<br />
There is however one thing that is not lawful, or permissible. There is one thing that all Christians are commanded to do and which must be done exactly correctly without exception. What is it? The preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.<br />
<br />
I have seen <b>Gal 1:6-9</b> quoted by many people for various reasons. I do my best to obey the Text and consider any who bring any other gospel than that which Paul and the Apostles received directly from Christ Himself <b>1Cor 15:1-11</b> as accursed. BUT, there is more to do with this passage than simply apply it to other people. We ought to be warned ourselves.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Gal-1-6" style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">6 </span>I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, </span><span style="font-size: 16px;"></span><span class="text Gal-1-7" id="en-NKJV-29065" style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">7 </span>which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.</span><span style="font-size: 16px;"></span><span class="text Gal-1-8" id="en-NKJV-29066" style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">8 </span>But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. </span><span style="font-size: 16px;"></span><span class="text Gal-1-9" id="en-NKJV-29067" style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">9 </span>As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
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Long ago I knew my life would be about the Gospel. I desired to be used of God to announce, defend, and instruct the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As I have matured past finger pointing I have begun to realize that every time I preach the Gospel I do not have any freedom as to the content of the message. What about you?</div>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-53805787899004103612013-06-15T11:52:00.000-03:002013-06-15T12:28:48.696-03:00Doctrines of Evangelism update<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1prh1cbCdeSvvlfdQk5SFD-WUpxHWFVBQNIStg_JE4UULuXO18gSCGSALuRjJqd4mzsmrmnSnW3-BWocIdCbLI34aejwlh5DmIqXOz5fBcUkGD5tuktIJDnaIo3IWScEZPpYpiQ/s1600/CEM_FB_Header.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="118" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1prh1cbCdeSvvlfdQk5SFD-WUpxHWFVBQNIStg_JE4UULuXO18gSCGSALuRjJqd4mzsmrmnSnW3-BWocIdCbLI34aejwlh5DmIqXOz5fBcUkGD5tuktIJDnaIo3IWScEZPpYpiQ/s320/CEM_FB_Header.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
<br />
As it turns out the document was not yet "content complete" when I last updated you on it. We forgot to include some small things, but also something very important! We forgot to include a statement on the Inspiration of Scripture.<br />
<br />
We are currently at version 0.95 and I expect to sign the document at version 1.0. Because some of the leadership of City Evangelism Ministries are travelling this will not happen for about two weeks. This document now has my full confidence, as I believe it accurately, clearly, and completely describes the essential doctrines related to Evangelism.<br />
<br />
Here is the index of the 17 page document as it is today.<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="p1">
<b>1.</b> <b>The Purpose of this Document</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>2.</b> <b>The General Principle of Our Work</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>3.</b> <b>Restrictions on the Content of Our Message and Preaching</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>4.</b> <b>The Godhead</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>5.</b> <b>The Person of Christ<br />
A.</b> <b>The Identity of Christ<br />
B.</b> <b>The Impeccability of Christ<br />
C.</b> <b>The Work of Christ</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>6.</b> <b>The Gospel<br />
A.</b> <b>The Gospel Identified<br />
B.</b> <b>The Gospel Detailed<br />
C.</b> <b>The Gospel Prophesied</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>7.</b> <b>The State and Position of Natural Man</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>8.</b> <b>Salvation<br />
A. An Overview<br />
B. Repentance</b></div>
<div class="p1">
<b> C. The Believer’s Faith</b></div>
<div class="p1">
<b> D. Faith and Repentance Manifested</b></div>
<div class="p1">
<b> E. The New Birth</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>9.</b> <b>Creation in Six 24-Hour Days</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>10.</b> <b>Judgment and Eternal Wrath for the Unbeliever after Death</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>11.</b> <b>Immediate and Permanent Reconciliation at Belief</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>12.</b> <b>Lawful Usage of Mosaic Law<br />
A.</b> <b>Using the 10 Commandments<br />
B.</b> <b>The Believer’s Rule of Life</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>13.</b> <b> Through the Foolishness of Preaching</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>14.</b> <b> Inspiration, Authority, Dependability, and Inerrancy of Holy Scripture</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>15.</b> <b> Exhortation to Believers to Preach the Gospel</b> </div>
<div class="p1">
<b>16. Approval and Changes to this Document </b></div>
</blockquote>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-15340625224870934162013-06-11T20:14:00.000-03:002013-06-11T20:15:01.923-03:00Pre-Faith or Post-Faith Regeneration<br />
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhIqmnVQESVbWNKe50bqBT43qoQyc3ZhVKBCHTIq9pV3xlhWpsb3RvdFF3yZLnDY54XCjU3ZYD-e_JbJdKaewHjInD99-ePNga5xk3qWUG3WpLezGfmd6PkRCPGHtb4RYtZLZCaRQ/s1600/NuGold_Light.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhIqmnVQESVbWNKe50bqBT43qoQyc3ZhVKBCHTIq9pV3xlhWpsb3RvdFF3yZLnDY54XCjU3ZYD-e_JbJdKaewHjInD99-ePNga5xk3qWUG3WpLezGfmd6PkRCPGHtb4RYtZLZCaRQ/s1600/NuGold_Light.jpg" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">When does the light get turned on?</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
I've had a bit of a break over the last week because the ministry Doctrinal Statement is being reviewed by other leaders and I am not leading the ministry Bible study this week. It's almost like a vacation! So with some free CPU cycles and a few moments of time what is the first thing I want to post about? <b><i>Calvinism.</i></b> Can you believe it? I'm surprised, but my tone ought to be much more relaxed as I'm dealing with a much less contentious issue than I was dealing with last year.<br />
<br />
Recently I was at a men's Bible study with a man who preaches the Gospel with great fidelity but whom believes that Regeneration precedes faith and that faith is a gift. This doctrine often leads to serious error which changes the Gospel, but I can honestly say that I don't believe it does with this Brother. He wouldn't claim the name Calvinist but he does admit that he is Calvinistic in his thinking.<br />
<br />
I've been enjoying speaking with this man because though he titles his views with terms that Calvinists use, his actual positions are not at all like Reformed Theology. We spoke about this for a while and practically we agree - no one comes to God unless the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces them. I think he terms this work as the New Birth, which I think is in error BUT he doesn't appear to hold to the inability to believe view. We spoke about Eph 2:8-9 and shared with him <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/01/wallace-on-ephesians-28-9.html" target="_blank">my findings based on extensive study and what William Wallace says in his Greek Grammar.</a></i></b> He had absolutely no issue with this view, which I found absolutely fascinating.<br />
<br />
As we were running out of time he explained that his view that faith is a gift and that regeneration precedes faith based on a passage that I would use to show that regeneration is conditioned on faith and so cannot precede it.<br />
<br />
<b>John 1:10-13</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><i><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000;"><span class="text John-1-10" id="en-NKJV-26055" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">10 </span>He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. </span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"></span><span class="text John-1-11" id="en-NKJV-26056" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">11 </span>He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. </span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"></span><span class="text John-1-12" id="en-NKJV-26057" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">12 </span>But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: </span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"></span><span class="text John-1-13" id="en-NKJV-26058" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><span class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; vertical-align: top;">13 </span>who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>
We did not have time to discuss it fully but he said that Vs 13 is the primary reason he believes these things.<br />
<br />
It seems to me that when we speak to Calvinists about when Regeneration happens and we talk about this verse that the Calvinist (or one who sounds like one) often changes the discussion from a timeline to a discussion of who's will is involved. Then we get wound up and end up in a debate about something that wasn't even the point of the conversation.<br />
<br />
Clearly Vs 12 gives us the timeline. To those who received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God. They received Him BEFORE they were born again as Children of God. There can be no further debate, the Holy Inspired Word of God tells us that unregenerate people receive Christ.<br />
<br />
But what about the issue of the will? The Calvinist will argue that if an Un-Regenerate Person can "choose" God then they are exercising their will and God is subject to their will. Well, here is a portion of the CEM document which is still a work in progress entitled "The Doctrines of Evangelism" on the subject of the New Birth.<br />
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<br />
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><b>The
New Birth:</b> Being “born again” is the gracious act of God in conferring upon
those who believe, the nature and disposition of “children of God” imparting to
them spiritual life. <i>(Adapted from Vine’s
Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)</i><o:p> </o:p>In order for fallen, depraved, man to have
fellowship with Holy God we must be “born again” or “regenerated.” This new
birth happens upon faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is accomplished by God
the Holy Spirit and coincides with His in-dwelling of the Believer. The New
Birth is not a gradual process nor is it reversible. It is instantaneous and
permanent.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #38761d;"> <o:p> </o:p>The New Birth is not accomplished by or in
accordance with the will of man but is according to the will of the God,
brought about by God by conviction of the Holy Spirit. Man does not choose to
be born again, but God gives the right to be born again to those who believe in
Christ. It is at this point that the
person becomes a New Creation, where as he or she now possesses not only their
own fallen (Old/Adamic) Nature but also the perfect (New/) Nature of Christ.
This New Nature desires the things of God and wars with the Old Nature as
described in <b>Para 8. D</b>. It is this new birth, and new nature of Christ
(based solely on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ) that allows us
to fellowship with God, not the performance of works.</span><br />
<br />
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Jn
1:10-13; Jn 3:1-21; Jn 3:36; Jn 5:24 Jn 6:40; Rom 3:20-26; 2Cor 5:17-21; 2Cor
6:14,19; Gal 6:12-15; Eph 1:13-14; Col 1:13-14; 1Pet 1:3,13-25; 1Jn 5:1</b></blockquote>
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<o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst">
<o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--><b><span style="color: blue;"><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<o:p></o:p></div>
This wording hasn't been officially approved by the ministry yet, but the overall Soteriology has been. This description demonstrates that there is no conflict between the timeline given by Scripture and the statement that the New Birth is according to the will of God.<br />
<br />
Both statements in this short passage can be read in a plain fashion and believed literally without conflict, and without Calvinism.Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-41344159500059919632013-05-27T14:45:00.000-03:002013-05-27T14:45:13.518-03:00The Doctrines of Evangelism - Content Complete!Between my business and work with the new City Evangelism Ministries(CEM) I have been authoring a massive document entitled "The Doctrines of Evangelism." That's why it has been SOOOOOOO slow around here.<br /><br />Just now I reached a massive milestone! The document is now "Content Complete", which is to say that all the doctrines required for biblically consistent evangelism are explained and demonstrated from the Scriptures. Now the work on making it somewhat readable begins.<br /><br />This document will explain primary doctrinal foundation of CEM and will be used to keep the the ministry on track for a long as the Lord may tarry. Here's the table of contents of this document which is currently 13 pages long. Once it is completed I am reasonably sure I will be able to share it here in it's entirety. <br /><br />*Sorry for the wonky formatting. I don't know how to fix it.<br />
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<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>The Doctrines of Evangelism</b></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<b>1.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Purpose of this Document <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>2.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
General Principle of Our Work<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>3.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Restrictions
on the Content of our Message and Preaching<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>4.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Godhead <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>5.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Person of Christ <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left: .75in; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>A.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Identity of Christ<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left: .75in; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>B.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Impeccability of Christ<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left: .75in; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>C.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Work of Christ<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>6.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The Gospel
<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>7.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
State and Position of Natural Man <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>8.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>SALVATION
<br />
A. An overview <br />
B. Repentance<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle">
<b>C. The
Believer’s Faith<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle">
<b>D.
Faith and Repentance Manifested<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle">
<b>E.
The New Birth<o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>9.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Creation
in Six 24-Hour Days <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>10.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Immediate
Judgment and Eternal Wrath <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>11.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Immediate
and Permanent Reconciliation at Belief <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>12.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Lawful
Usage of Mosaic Law <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>13.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b> Through the Foolishness of Preaching <o:p></o:p></b></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><b>14.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b> Exhortation to Believers to Preach the Gospel</b></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; text-indent: -.25in;">
<b style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: Cambria; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-fareast-font-family: "MS 明朝"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;">15 Approval and Changes to this Document </span></b></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<!--EndFragment--></blockquote>
<!--EndFragment-->Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-20456583636472148132013-05-14T17:14:00.000-03:002013-05-14T17:14:05.401-03:00Quick Thought - How did the Apostles know if someone was saved or not?Over the years I have been deeply frustrated by the practice of Lordship Salvation proponents in that they create various "tests" for their followers to see if they are "really" saved or not. If they are a "true convert" or a "false convert."<br /><br />In the past I have examined the "test" that Dr. John MacArthur offers in my series <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2010/11/testing-test-part-1.html" target="_blank">Testing the Test</a></i></b>. At another time I did a deeply personal series that examined the teaching of a man pastoring my dear best friend who helped to lead my beloved friend astray into dangerous false doctrine in my series <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2010/10/but-theology-part-1.html" target="_blank">'BUT' Theology</a></i></b>.<br /><br />Of course these "tests" fail any biblical examination. Yet, they hold millions in bondage. In my book <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Fail-Safe-Fallacy-Believer-Straight-ebook/dp/B004V5HYLI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1368562037&sr=1-1&keywords=Fail-Safe+for+Fallacy+Kevin+lane" target="_blank">Fail-Safe for Fallacy</a></i></b> I briefly examined the text often used to justify the practice of developing and administering "tests of salvation" which is 2Cor 13:5. I found that the practice is not justified by the Text at all.<br /><br />This practice has bothered me for as long as I've been saved. BUT, you know what? When Saul was saved the 12 Apostles didn't just believe it. Barnabas had to convince them that he was. How did he do it? Did he talk about how he had forsaken sin? That he was submitted to the Lordship of Christ? That Christ was Master of his life? That he obeyed the commands of Christ? That he regretted all of his sin? That he didn't continue in sin?<br /><br />Nope.<br /><br /><b>Acts 9:26-30</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i><span class="text Acts-9-26" style="background-color: white;"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">26 </sup>And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. </span><span style="background-color: white;"></span><span class="text Acts-9-27" id="en-NKJV-27244" style="background-color: white;"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">27 </sup>But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. </span><span style="background-color: white;"></span><span class="text Acts-9-28" id="en-NKJV-27245" style="background-color: white;"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">28 </sup>So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. </span><span style="background-color: white;"></span><span class="text Acts-9-29" id="en-NKJV-27246" style="background-color: white;"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">29 </sup>And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. </span><span style="background-color: white;"></span><span class="text Acts-9-30" id="en-NKJV-27247" style="background-color: white;"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">30 </sup>When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-88068514594139189612013-04-11T13:33:00.001-03:002013-04-11T13:33:32.727-03:00On Van Til, Charlie Clough, and Presuppositional ApologeticsBrother Glenn has just posted an article about Cornelius Van Til, who I would consider the father of Presuppositional Apologetics, and Charlie Clough's "Bible Framerwork" course over at his <b><i><a href="http://wisdomknowledge.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/cornelius-van-til-and-charlie-cloughs-bible-framework-course/" target="_blank">Wisdom and Knowledge blog</a></i></b>.<br /><br />Some of you may be familiar with Sye Ten Bruggencate and his <b><i><a href="http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.php" target="_blank">ProofThatGodExists.org</a></i></b> website (which I do not endorse). Sye is a friend of a number of my friends but I have never met the man. He is sincere in his work but his approach is radically different than what I see in the Scriptures so I am uncomfortable with it overall. He does have some good points that he makes, and he and I would engage in similar discussion with Sinners from time to time. I'm not saying he is all bad, but I am saying that a lot of what Brother Glenn points out in his article seems to be true of how Sye works in his ministry as well. This of course makes sense as Sye come's from the Van Til line of thinking and even recommends Van Til's books.<br /><br />Here is how Glenn opens his <a href="http://wisdomknowledge.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/cornelius-van-til-and-charlie-cloughs-bible-framework-course/" target="_blank">article</a>:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;"><b><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px;">It is my conviction that there are issues with Cornelius Van Til’s presuppositional approach to apologetics which Dispensationalists in particular are not generally aware of. Through Charlie Clough’s popular </span>Bible Framework<span style="font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px;"> series Van Til’s apologetics are taking hold in dispensational circles. My goal is not to tell anyone what they can or cannot believe. Rather I want to encourage our next generation of Dispensational pastors, seminary professors, and Sunday school teachers to be Bereans and look good and hard at the implications of this system!</span></b></span></i></blockquote>
Please visit and read this article at <b><i><a href="http://wisdomknowledge.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/cornelius-van-til-and-charlie-cloughs-bible-framework-course/" target="_blank">The Wisdom and Knowledge Blog</a></i></b>.Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-71021732067239158862013-04-04T18:17:00.001-03:002013-04-04T18:24:14.709-03:00A New Work in Evangelism and Explaining Repentance and Faith<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEifprzpJyjNyxe1hxNNYBWDgQFPT7FrYK53GlScpxhJofUZjnYbT573bo9-RigGAF90lvZxKk27vyuWsE-Z5saSOql9GbMtZTDahHlUj2KiL4zh1O4HiwJM2H1hIA8SYwxSV5YJHg/s1600/Booth_small.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEifprzpJyjNyxe1hxNNYBWDgQFPT7FrYK53GlScpxhJofUZjnYbT573bo9-RigGAF90lvZxKk27vyuWsE-Z5saSOql9GbMtZTDahHlUj2KiL4zh1O4HiwJM2H1hIA8SYwxSV5YJHg/s320/Booth_small.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">The CEM Booth at Jesus to the Nations 2013</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
Back in 2010 I resigned from an Evangelism ministry because the other leaders had adopted the doctrine of Lordship Salvation. One of the major issues was the definition of Repentance Unto Eternal Life we had decided on was clear, but not explicitly nailed down enough. The definition we used was clearly inconsistent with Lordship Salvation, but it wasn't explicit enough to guard against the slow growth of that false doctrine inside the ministry. By the time I left the ministry I still believed it meant to change your mind, but some other people believed it meant "to forsake sin."<br />
<br />
It took about a year to get back into the work of Evangelism. I had been upset, and truthfully I went through a period of whining that included the idea that I was the only one (at least in my area) who had repentance and the Gospel right. Of course that was delusional and more about my being upset than anything else.<br />
<br />
Anyway, imagine the mix of emotions I had as I re-joined a local group of people I had worked with off and on over the years in the work of Street Evangelism. Most of the faces had changed since the last time I had been out with them, but there were a few old friends still showing up. There was a mix of doctrine, but thankfully there were some people preaching the true Gospel as revealed in the Scriptures.<br />
<br />
Fast forward a year and a half, and three of us have decided to form a new ministry. Here is part of our statement of the Doctrines of Evangelism. It is a work in progress, but I'm interested in your comments. Notes about Regeneration are yet to be added.<br />
<br />
On that note, I sure hope there are still people checking here! We have been very busy building this new ministry and have already attended one Missions conference with a display table.<br />
<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><span style="font-size: 16.0pt;">7. Salvation</span></b><o:p> </o:p></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>A.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>OVERVIEW</b>:
Salvation, including: Justification, Reconciliation, and Glorification is
accomplished by Grace alone and accessed through Faith alone in Christ alone,
completely apart from works. That is to say that Salvation is the Gift of God
brought to man by unmerited favor alone, and received by personal faith alone
in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, whose substitutionary atonement fully
reconciles all those who believe in Him to God completely apart from works. <b>Eph 1:7;
Eph 2:8-9; Jn 1:13; 1Pet 1:18-19;
Rom 3:19-28; Rom 4:1-8; Rom 4:16;
Ps 32:1-2, Rom 5:1-2; Isa 53; Isa 55:1-3; Lev 16; Acts 13:38-39; Gal 2:16</b><b></b></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>B.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Repentance</b>:
“Repent” and “repentance” are words, derived from the Old French word “repentir,”
which are used in modern English translations of the Scriptures to represent 5
words in the original languages (2 Hebrew and 3 Greek). Some of these words
have similar meanings but others have diverse meanings. The only word
translated repent or repentance in all of the Scriptures, which is also related
to reconciliation with God (being saved, receiving Eternal Life, being
justified, etc…), is the Greek word Metanoia (Metanoeo). This word carries the
meaning of critically rethinking something and coming to a different
conclusion. That is having a change of mind, through investigation, being
convinced or being persuaded. It is the present ministry of God the Holy Spirit
to convict and convince the World of Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment. In the
carrying out of this ministry God the Holy Spirit will “open the heart” of the
one being witnessed to, that is to cause the person to pay attention to the
message with serious consideration, and He will do the actual convincing. The
unbeliever being witnessed to must repent, that is to change their mind about
Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment in order for them to be in a position to have
faith in the Gospel which is a message of deliverance from the danger they are
in. In short, one cannot be assured
unless they are first disturbed. It is clear from the Scriptures that Metanoia
(or Metanoeo) does not mean the actual, attempted, promised or intended,
reformation of one’s life. In reference to being reconciled with God it is one
recognizing and agreeing with God that their own sin is evil, that God is
righteous and that He will rightly judge their sin justly. “Repentance Unto
Life” isn’t about changing one’s life, it is about agreeing with God. God uses all things to lead people to this repentance;
ie revelation and conviction from the Scriptures, testimony of believers,
creation, His goodness, mercy, good works of Believers, fearful circumstances,
close calls, misery, pain, and sickness to name but a few possible things. Passages
to consider: <b>Mat 9:13; Luk 16:19-31;
Luk 17:3-4; Luk 24:46-48; Jn 16:5-11; Acts 2:38;
Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Acts 19:4;
Acts 20:17-24; Acts
26:19-23; Rom 2:4; Rom 4:1-8; Rom 4:16;
2Cor 7:10; Heb 6:1; 2Pet 3:9</b><o:p> </o:p></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>C.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>The
Believer’s Faith</b>: It is the Object of faith (the Lord Jesus Christ) Who
saves, not the quality of the faith, or the faith itself. The Believers faith, (sometimes called “saving
faith” though faith does not save in itself) is like Abram’s faith when he
“Believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.” The Believer’s
faith is assurance in the Person of Jesus Christ based on having received the
Gospel. True saving faith is when a guilty, ungodly sinner knows that Jesus
Christ has completely paid that sinner’s own due penalty so that they are fully
reconciled to God having received the Gospel of Christ. <b>Rom 4; Gen 15:6; Acts 15:7;
Acts 18:8; Rom 1:16; 1Cor 4:15;
1Cor 15:1; Eph 1:13-14</b><o:p> </o:p></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>D.<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; font-weight: normal;">
</span></b><!--[endif]--><b>Repentance
and Faith Manifested</b>: One has truly repented when one is fully convinced
that they need to be saved from the righteous judgment of their own personal
sin knowing that Judgment is sure to come. Having repented, one truly has faith
when they are assured that the Lord Jesus Christ the Righteous has paid the
full and just penalty for their sin and that this has been accepted by God the
Father as the only, and complete, payment to secure their personal
reconciliation to Him. It is perfectly reasonable to expect a Believer to “do
the works befitting repentance” and to be submitted to the mastery of Christ in
their life. However, these are not conditions for Salvation and often require
exhortation and discipleship unto maturity to foster and maintain. The Believer possesses two natures, which war
with each other; that of Adam and that of Christ. It is fully reasonable to
expect actual believers to suffer struggles with sin, and also to have desires
for righteousness. Salvation is instant, perfect, and cannot be revoked or
reduced. Sanctification is a process worked in the Believer by God the Holy
Spirit as the Believer submits which may vary with time or circumstance. <b>Acts 26:20</b>; <b>Rom
6:13; Rom ch7; Rom 8:12-13; Gal 5:16-25; Eph 4:22-24; Col 3:10; 1Pet 1:13-16; 1Jn 3:5-9</b></blockquote>
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<br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-13129096329562589162013-02-13T10:12:00.001-04:002013-02-13T10:12:15.066-04:00Changing Thoughts on ApologeticsAs noted in my last post I am currently working with a small group of Brethren to build a new Evangelism organization. The first time I was involved in such a work it was heavily based on strong apologetics; unafraid of tough questions, detailed and compelling arguments, confidence in the scientific validity of our faith, and stepping into arguments and debates wherever they may be happening.<br /><br />I've learned a valuable lesson. God has not promised to bless our science, our arguments, our philosophy, or our cleverness. God has chosen to save people through the foolishness of preaching the Cross. God has promised to bless the preaching of His Word.<br /><br />Apologetics is valuable. I do believe we should be able to answer tough questions, and to show that we are not blindly following some old book. But Apologetics is a tool which is primarily effective in edifying the Church which is His Body, not primarily effective in reaching the Lost. Does it ever "work"? Of course, God uses all things to draw people. Is it what God told us to talk about with the Lost? No.<br /><br />If you are, why are you a Christian? I mean really. Is it because Evolution fails under testing using the scientific method? Is it because observed genetic entropy works many times faster than even the most optimistic of the proposed evolutionary models? Is it because Natural Selection selects available information and discards the information it does not select so therefore a process which limits information instead of expands it? Is it because the Flood best explains the fossils and rock formations we find all over the World? Is it because we find fossilized human footprints inside of dinosaur footprints, and fossilized people in the same layers as fossilized dinosaurs? Is it because the Creation model has continually made accurate predictions about the workings of the Solar System while the Stellar Evolution model has to violate known scientific laws?<br />
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Nope. If you're a Christian it is because God the Holy Spirit has convicted and convinced you, someone told you the Gospel of the Christ, and you believed it.<br /><br />Having science, history, archeology, philosophy, and logic arguments is great. I think it's important that people know you are aware of the science of the day and that you're able to discuss such ideas. But none of it really matters because God the Holy Spirit is either going to convince or He is not.<br /><br />Here's another thought for you. In the thousands of personal evangelism conversations that I have had I have never run into someone who was actually qualified to evaluate the science they used to challenge the Bible. You can study apologetics all you want, but you will seldom (if ever) find someone who disagrees with the Bible, who is actually able to discuss the subjects at hand with integrity. In the end, they will appeal to authority and claim that trumps whatever argument you bring up: "Dr. So & So says XYZ so whatever you think you just explained doesn't matter. He's a SCIENTIST and I'll believe him over you." That's just how it goes.<br /><br />Here's another example. Are you a witness unto Christ or one of those dolls that you pull the string and it says something clever and funny? This example applies to apologetics and other hot topics like abortion and homosexuality.<br /><br />You start up a conversation with someone by passing them a Tract or some other way. As soon as they know this has to do with "Jesus" they do this:<br /><br />"Wait, wait. Wait just a second. This is about Jesus and the Bible right? OK what's your view of XYZ?"<br /><br />If your evangelism depends on Apologetics, then your evangelism depends on you being correct in your intellectual arguments. You are saying that because your science is true the person should believe in Jesus. People know this is how you are going to interact with them. So they make you make claims and defend those claims. It's actually ENTERTAINING for them to watch you go. They pull the string and you let your claims fly!<br /><br />Let's say this is the question:<br />"OK what's your view about Evolution?"<br /><br />You say something like:<br />"Evolution is false because XYZ and ABC. If you look at the science......"<br /><br />The person responds with laughter and amusement. He is almost dismissive. Because your evangelism depends on your argument being true you have to try to save it, to get him to take you seriously for a few moments.... the rest of the conversation is about you trying to get the person to take YOU and YOUR argument seriously. No matter if you are right or wrong, he's been taught his whole life by everyone who has credibility in his life that you are a nut, and flat out wrong. You're not witnessing of Christ, you're witnessing of you.<br /><br />What if instead of engaging on the basis of apologetics you witness on the basis that God is either convicting and convincing the person you're talking with or He is not? What if you DEPENDED on the Holy Spirit's ministry of John 16:5-11?<br /><br />I've learned to tell people that my opinion or view of Evolution/Abortion/Homosexuality really doesn't matter. What matters is the truth, and what God says about it. Are you going to loose people at this point? Of course you are. You're going to loose the people who would have only pulled your string and watch in amusement as you try to defend your views. I let people know that I understand the science and reject the theory on the basis of science. Then I move on to the issues that matter - Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment. I use these to show why the Gospel is "good news" and the person believes or he doesn't.<br /><br />I don't want to try to argue people into the faith anymore. Why? Because we can't. It doesn't work that way. Who are we witnesses of? Christ.<br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-2763494227694923772013-02-05T08:42:00.001-04:002013-02-05T08:44:04.455-04:00On My Walk 102: A New Old ThingWhen I was first saved my first instinct about what to do with my new life was not unlike the first instinct most new Believers have; tell everyone about Christ! In the months and years immediately following my New Birth my desires settled into two priorities; to help Believers tell everyone, and telling everyone myself.<br />
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My work in Evangelism began with the writing of a document called "Ministry 180" in which the idea that ministries need to build up believers to work outside of the confines of church buildings to reach those who are outside of church buildings. I didn't have a clue about HOW to reach these people, but I sure knew where they were and where they weren't. I knew without a shadow of a doubt that prostitutes, drug dealers, and murderers didn't just show up at church services on Sunday to find out about Jesus without some serious motivation.<br />
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So I had this document, a burning desire in my heart, and not a clue what to do with any of it. It turns out I wasn't alone. My beloved friend Cory called me up and asked me if I had heard of a particular evangelism training organization, and if I had heard of this or that training material. We both enrolled in the organization and went through the training.<br />
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Now we had half a clue about how to speak to the Lost, but we were still really green. So we found some other believers who were doing the work and hit the streets. We were each amazed by how you really can engage people about sin, life, death, eternity, judgment, righteousness, and the Gospel when you haven't built a relationship with them. We quickly learned you truly can preach the Gospel to every creature in the world!<br />
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We knew we wanted to help Believers do what we had become passionate about. So we launched a ministry called The Cross Current(TCC). We would help the Church engage the culture using the hot topics of the day, science, philosophy, and history. We would literally give them conversations to have with the Lost people they know that would lead them to the Gospel, and if there were tough or heated questions we would take them on their behalf. I was sure I had found my life's work.<br />
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We built a radio program and podcast that would teach and give real-life examples of real conversations we had on the streets of Canadian cities so listeners could hear how they really go. And not only that, but they could hear that these conversations are real and possible to be had right here in Canada! The radio show was the hub of the ministry. It gave us credibility with people on the street, and exposure to the Church.<br />
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The radio show was sexy. It took a lot of effort and time to produce. I found myself working on the radio show during my coffee breaks, lunch, and every minute of my evenings just to keep up. As much as we felt God was using the ministry, He didn't seem to be providing labourers who would help carry the load. We did have a growing team of people who would go out on the streets, but we could not seem to keep workers interested in the radio program. While the show was popular with listeners, the team that went out on the streets just didn't seem to get it.<br />
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Amidst the effort to keep the show on the air and of high quality, Cory and I though we were extremely close friends started to drift apart doctrinally. He would say I moved, and I would say he moved. Perhaps we both moved somewhat. By the Summer of 2010 it was clear that Cory and I were preaching two entirely different things and both of us calling what we preach the Gospel.<br />
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How could this happen? We were an organization that had trained hundreds of people to share their faith together. We had engaged thousands of people with the Gospel personally, and countless thousands through the radio show and podcast. We had a 22 page Statement of Faith which we had worked exceedingly hard at refining. It was true though. We were at an impasse. Once I got the courage up to challenge the situation the end was inevitable. He wasn't going to move, and neither was I. When that was finally spoken, the President of TCC asked the Vice President of TCC to resign, and I did.<br />
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It has been about 2.5 years since these events went down. Without the requirement of writing and producing I've returned to the simpler work of Street Evangelism. It has been a marvel to me to see how much I still need to learn, after having been part of a team teaching so many others how to do the work. I've found that many of the "sexy" things we found so helpful with TCC are really not all that helpful on the street. I've found that gentle, simple, and clear presentations of the Truth are much better for the work than strong logical arguments.<br />
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Recently God has been bringing a group of men together in my city to do a work very similar to what I had hoped to do with TCC. The Brother who seems to be drawn to lead the effort is a lot like by beloved friend Cory, but he's older and more mature than either Cory or I were back when we put TCC together. The same passion is in him, but the desire to not move unless clearly led of God is something I admire in him, and which also gives me calm. This time there are three of us instead of just two. This time we have a history of 6 or 7 years of local street ministry that we can build from.<br />
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It would seem that God is not done using me in the work that fires my heart with passion. It would seem that He has a new, old, thing for me to do. Perhaps this time I will be more faithful with it, and less industrial.Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-48483182770363870602012-12-24T23:46:00.000-04:002012-12-24T23:48:16.166-04:00Born in the Shadow of the Cross<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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Tonight the World pauses to celebrate. Some will celebrate family, some will celebrate personal lusts, some will celebrate very little. By God's grace, it seems, that no matter what people are meaning to celebrate they will be doing so while bathed in songs that speak of the birth of our Lord. From instrumentals, to songs praising God with "hallelujah."<br />
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Tonight believers pause to celebrate the coming of the Lord the World rejected. While the world ignores the truth of the future it faces we who have read and believed the Bible know that the Lord Jesus did not ignore the future He faced when He came here. He willingly came to do the will of the Father.<br />
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He was born into this world in the shadow of the Cross. Born to die, so that we might live. Tonight give praise to God who loved the world in this way: that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever shall believe might have eternal life.Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-67290430582814382862012-12-13T09:21:00.002-04:002012-12-13T09:21:47.132-04:00The Debater's Potter - Part 21 - Conclusion<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
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<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">THE CONCLUSION!!!!</td></tr>
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Welcome to the conclusion of the longest series of articles I've ever posted at OMW. The Debater's Potter series started out as something I could hardly imagine finishing, but here it is: THE FINISH LINE!<br /><br />The <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/06/debaters-potter-part-1-introduction.html">Introduction to the series</a></i></b> was posted on 11 June 2012, and as I'm typing these words it is currently 13 December 2012. I just about broke every rule of blogging in this series, but I've had encouraging feedback nonetheless. All who have sent, commented, or spoken, words of encouragement can know your words have been dear to me!<br /><br />
Before I get to funner stuff I want to summarize my thoughts about <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Potters-Freedom-Reformation-Rebuttal-ebook/dp/B008517ZBI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1339437546&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Potter%27s+Freedom">The Potter's Freedom: A Defense of the Reformation and The Rebuttal of Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free</a></i></b> by Dr. James R. White hereon to be referred to as TPF. <br /><br /><b><i>TPF is not a good book.</i></b> <br /><br />I want to first acknowledge that I'm a nobody. Not only do I not make videos of myself sitting in front of a library of books as Dr. White does, I don't have a library of books and have not read a library of books. I hold no degrees. I have limited formal Theological training, and none directly relating to the subjects at hand in this series. Other than the years of work I have put into the study of Salvation I am wholly unqualified to be able to answer Dr. White, let alone rebut this flagship work of his. It simply ought not be possible for me to do so. I didn't set out to rebut it, but in the end I think that is exactly what has been accomplished.<br /><br />TPF is not a good book for at least these three reasons:<br /><br />It offers a poor, incomplete and inaccurate defense of The Great Reformation. Instead of discussing the Reformation as a whole Dr. White focuses on one doctrine and makes it his very definition of the Reformation; that being Determinism. Not only that but Dr. White was incapable of finding a single passage in the Bible that spoke of God ordering His universe by Determinism. Instead we were treated to nearly endless discussions of how Arminians think that God bows to the will of man.<br /><br />It offers a poor, inaccurate and wholly incomplete rebuttal of Dr. Norman Geisler's <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-But-Free-ebook/dp/B0038636FO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1339437898&sr=1-1&keywords=chosen+but+free">Chosen But Free</a>(CBF)</i></b>. Instead of answering any arguments made in CBF, Dr. White knocks down straw man after straw man. He accuses CBF of being shallow and failing to interact with the multitude of Reformed material while at the same time failing to interact with any core argument, in the book he is attempting to rebut, at all. Here's a challenge for anyone who thinks this claim of mine is untrue. Purchase both books, study CBF, and then using quotes from <b><i>ONLY</i></b> TPF explain Dr. Geisler's view of Election accurately and completely. Then using quotes from ONLY TPF explain Dr. Geisler's views and challenges that he explains in his first two chapters, as I detailed in <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/07/debaters-potter-part-7-brief-view-of.html">Part 7</a></i></b>, and Dr. White's "rebuttal" of them.<br /><br />Finally, TPF is not a good book because it only half-heartedly even attempts to accomplish either objective it had, fails miserably, and all the while comes off as the most haughty "christian" material I have ever observed.<br /><br />So with that out of the way...<br /><br /><b>Highlights of the series for me.</b><br /><br />The first, and I think only, time Dr. White actually "got" Dr. Geisler filled me with joy. Geisler had written that John Calvin didn't hold to Limited Atonement, and after agreeing that many scholars hold this view Dr. White provided a quote from Calvin that showed at least at some point Calvin did hold to a limited atonement view. I enjoyed that more than would seem reasonable.<br /><br />Getting through John 6 verse by verse was definitely a highlight for me. Being able to accurately explain the opposing view and then explaining the chapter verse by verse in such a way that is both accurate to the Text, and in complete contrast to what the Calvinist says is the only other option - universalism.<br /><br />Seeing Dr. White quote John Piper saying that if someone's theology cannot explain all of Hebrews 9 consistently that their theology must be discarded, and then noting that both men stop short of the end of that chapter where their theology is impeached by the Text, and being able to consistently hold to the same theology through the passage myself.<br /><br /><b>How much work was all of this?</b><br /><br />Besides the background of study I have been spending 10-20 hours a week writing this series. <br /><br /><b>What's next? </b><br /><br />A growing number of people are interested in this series being adapted as a book. There are several challenges that need to be overcome in order for that to happen. For sure the writing would have to have a huge change of tone. The series has been a near real time interaction with the book. I was reading ahead but not very far. There was a huge amount of pressure to get every point right as I went. I found myself not having time to recover from offense generated by the book. All of this lead to a lot of drama in the articles. That might work for blog posts but it would not work for a book.<br /><br />One of the biggest challenges to adapt this to a book would be to strip out a lot of the more petty interactions. I wanted to show the personality of the writing so I included many of the silly side arguments that really were nothing more than personal attacks on Geisler. In book form I would acknowledge them and move on. Frankly, the first half of TPF could largely be discussed on a couple of pages of a book, and I doubt I would add more.<br /><br />
While this series has been a journey for me, that you all got to come along with, a book would have to bring the reader through their own journey. So it would have to be less about my reaction to the TPF, and more about letting the reader of my book react to it.<br /><br />That's it folks! That's The Debater's Potter.<br /><br />Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-43678356326885248062012-12-11T16:47:00.000-04:002012-12-11T16:47:42.713-04:00Life In 6 Words<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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Here is a very cool Gospel presentation that packs a punch and overs many important topics without geting weighed down by any of them. The message is clear and well presented. I like it!<br /><br />The thumbnail for the video is unfortunate, but the video is VERY well made.Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16963152.post-3588804840214312542012-12-09T23:38:00.001-04:002012-12-13T08:24:49.269-04:00The Debater's Potter - Part 20 - Chapter 14 & Appendices<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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In this article we, all of you reading and myself, will finally make it to the end of Dr. James R. White's book <b><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Potters-Freedom-Reformation-Rebuttal-ebook/dp/B008517ZBI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1339437546&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Potter%27s+Freedom"><i>The Potter's Freedom(TPF)</i></a></b> which is his attempt at <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"a defense of the Reformation and the rebuttal of Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free."</span></i> Now <b><i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-But-Free-ebook/dp/B0038636FO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1339437898&sr=1-1&keywords=chosen+but+free">Chosen But Free(CBF)</a></i></b> by Dr. Norman Geisler is a book which establishes a view of God's sovereignty based on a great deal of Scripture and then builds a largely philosophical case for how the saved Believer in Christ could both be chosen, and free.<br />
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In this series of articles I am responding to and interacting with TPF in near real time as I am reading it. The articles have been exceedingly long because I have not wanted to skip over even a single argument made by Dr. White. He often complains in TPF, and in his videos, that people don't interact with the things he says when they question the veracity of his theology as he presents it. So I chose to get into every single argument he brings to the table. That being true, it had been my intention to only read and interact with the actual book and not his Appendices. This changed when I started reading Chapter 14 and found myself in shock at what I was reading. It was late at night and I knew if I didn't get all the way to the end of the book I would never open it again. So, since I read the entire thing, I will interact with the entire thing here. <br />
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Again I would like to ask my readers to purchase both Dr. White's book, and Dr. Geisler's. My interaction with either is no substitute for reading them. I would also remind readers to <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/06/debaters-potter-part-1-introduction.html">begin a the Introduction to this series</a></i></b>.<br />
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So let's get to the last chapter of the book!<br />
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<b><i><span style="color: #274e13; font-size: large;">The Potter's Freedom Defended</span></i></b><br />
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<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"There are few truths more precious to the Reformed believer than the doctrines of grace. These are not issues of mere debate. They are the very essences of the meaning of grace. God's freedom, His proper right of kingship, His unchanging nature, and eternal decree, are precious. In a world where men fancy themselves demigods the Calvinist says, 'God reigns, and I gladly serve Him."</span></i></blockquote>
When a simple Believer in Christ wants to know what Grace means they might study the Scriptures to find that it means unmerited favour, or undeserved favour. But, apparently, when a <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Reformed believer"</span></i> wants to know what Grace means they turn to TULIP, or the so-called Doctrines of Grace.<br />
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As we have seen Dr. White's definition of "God's Freedom" is in error, as it does not match the God of the Scriptures. God doesn't just have the "right of kingship" He is King of the Universe. His nature is unchanging, this secures our reliance on His grace but doesn't define it. There are no instances of the Calvinist "eternal decree" in the Scripture; not stated, implied or required. The Eternal Decrees of God that the Calvinist uses to explain Determinism simply do not exist, they never happened, and further God does not govern the Universe by Determinism.<br />
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The last sentence is most telling however. Perhaps knowing the weakness of his assertion Dr. White resorts to a straw-man to knock down. Perhaps there are people in the world who fancy themselves demigods, but this is not at all the position that Dr. Geisler presents. </div>
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It is interesting that Dr. White's theology cannot remain consistent when it comes to practice.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I know the depth of sin and depravity that yet remains in my heart, and knowing it, realize my utter impotence to break its chains outside of grace." </span></i></blockquote>
While I can honestly say these very same words myself, <b><i>when I say them</i></b> they do not violate the theology that I espouse like they do when Dr. White writes them. See he has been arguing that God gives the sinner a new heart with God's Law's written on them. That He removes that heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. See Dr. White quotes <b>Ezk 36:26</b> as though it is what God does to sinners to make them able to believe. See they were apparently dead in sin and unable to believe, so God gave them a new divine gift of a heart with a righteous nature that can believe. Let's read some of the passage and see if Dr. White, <b><i>by his very own confession</i></b>, has indeed actually experienced this blessing of God or not.<br />
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<b>Ezk 36:22-32</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text Ezek-36-22" id="en-NKJV-21382"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">22 </sup>“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">God</span>: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.</span><span class="text Ezek-36-23" id="en-NKJV-21383"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">23 </sup>And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>,” says the Lord <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">God</span>, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. </span><span class="text Ezek-36-24" id="en-NKJV-21384"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">24 </sup>For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. </span><span class="text Ezek-36-25" id="en-NKJV-21385"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">25 </sup>Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. </span><b><span class="text Ezek-36-26" id="en-NKJV-21386"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">26 </sup>I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.</span><span class="text Ezek-36-27" id="en-NKJV-21387"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">27 </sup>I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. </span></b><span class="text Ezek-36-28" id="en-NKJV-21388"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">28 </sup>Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. </span><span class="text Ezek-36-29" id="en-NKJV-21389"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">29 </sup><b>I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.</b> I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. </span><span class="text Ezek-36-30" id="en-NKJV-21390"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">30 </sup>And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. </span><span class="text Ezek-36-31" id="en-NKJV-21391"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">31 </sup>Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. </span><span class="text Ezek-36-32" id="en-NKJV-21392"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">32 </sup>Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord <span class="small-caps" style="font-variant: small-caps;">God</span>, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”</span></i></span></blockquote>
Interesting. First we find that this is a promise to the House of Israel... let's say that Christians are the new Israel and God has replaced His Elect Nation with Elect Believers in Christ (I don't believe that for a second, but it is what is required for Dr. White's use of the passage to be even remotely true). Next, let's see that the old heart will be removed, and that He will cleanse them from ALL UNCLEANNESS. Frankly, by Dr. White's confession he has NOT had this happen to him. I'm sorry to report that if you still have depravity in your heart you have not had your heart replaced by God.<br />
<br />
Of course this passage has nothing to do with saving sinners in this age. It has nothing to do with Christians. It is a promise to the House of Israel which they will enjoy after they say <i><b><span style="color: #660000;">"Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD!"</span></b></i><br />
<br />
He outright abandons his theology again when he states:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"If we realize that all things are meant to result in His glory, and that we are but vessels of mercy, made of honor and glory, we will live our lives so as to reflect the glory of the divine and majestic Creator who made us and sustains us."</span></i></blockquote>
What do you mean <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"if"</span></i>? Does God <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"try and try"</span></i> to use a <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"vessel of mercy"</span></i> for His glory <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"and fail and fail"</span></i> if they don't <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"realize"</span></i> this? If all things are meant to result in His Glory does God fail with those that don't? Is the Potter's freedom to use His pots as He chooses in subjection to the will of the pots, so that He can only use them <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"IF"</span></i> they realize...?<br />
<br />
Discussing a chapter in CBF called "What Difference Does It Make?" were Dr. Geisler writes <span style="color: #0c343d;">"Belief affects behaviour, and so ideas have consequences."</span> Dr. White offers:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"In this he is quite correct. And since, the vast majority of the argumentation in CBF is directed at Calvinism and is written in support of Arminianism, it is obvious that he believes the practical implications of Calvinism are important indeed, in a strongly negative sense."</span></i></blockquote>
Dr. Geisler does not support Arminianism in CBF. As for the practical implications of Calvinism being important indeed, in a strongly negative sense... <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-cage-stage-of-maturing-in-calvinism.html">Well it is Dr. White who noting how HORRIBLE new Calvinists often act, had to write a book about the famous "Cage Stage."</a></i></b><br />
<br />
Dr. White chooses his last chapter to address some of what Geisler calles <span style="color: #0c343d;">"practical consequences of extreme Calvinism."</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"In concluding our refutation of CBF we would like to note these alleged concerns."</span></i></blockquote>
I think we'll see by the end of this article that the author of TPF is in no way even sincere in his attempt at rebutting CBF, let alone successful in it. Here are some of the "concerns" that Dr. White chooses to respond to however.<br />
<br />
<b>Concern:</b> <span style="color: #0c343d;">"Failing to take personal responsibility for our actions"</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This is false. Calvinism has historically been in the forefront of every meaningful revival, such as the Great Awakening, that included as part of its fabric personal behavior and a concern for holiness."</span></i></blockquote>
Yay for Calvinism. However, the fact is that Calvinism states that God decrees every action. The sinner nor the saved Believer actually decides what to do. That is the context of Geisler's "concern." White's Lordship Salvation comes out here:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>"The greatest impetus that exists for personal holiness and godly behavior is a recognition of one's creatureliness, the sovereignty of God, His glory, and our debt to grace." </i></blockquote>
The saved believer is in debt, according to Dr. White and he doesn't address Dr. Geisler's actual concern at all.<br />
<br />
<b>Concern: </b><span style="color: #0c343d;">"Calvinism blames God for evil."</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This is false. Calvinism's God is so great, so powerful, and so free, that He can answer the 'big questions" without being stripped of His freedom and His ability to positively decree whatsoever comes to pass."</span></i></blockquote>
So if God decrees whatsoever comes to pass then that includes sin. Thus God is blamed for evil. But Dr. White doesn't stop there. He offers a discussion that I suggest everyone investigating Calvinism ought to read. If this philosophical argument doesn't show you the depravity of Calvinism I don't know what will.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Dr. Geisler, in this section, speaks of a speaker at a conference that recognized that God had been involved in the death of his son, and CBF, sadly, provides a surface level response that shows no interest in entering into the depths of this topic."</span></i></blockquote>
I am about to quote what Dr. Geisler shared in CBF, and I want you to consider Dr. White's words <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"...that God had been involved in the death of his son..."</span></i> I think we'll see that Dr. White attempts to soften the discussion by exchanging the idea of being "involved" in the death of the son for what the Calvinist actually said. <b><i>Dr. White doesn't offer the whole quotation but I will. </i></b></div>
<div>
<br />
I'll start with the part Dr. White did <b><i>NOT</i></b> quote from CBF:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"The second example is also tragic. A well-known conference speaker was explaining how he was unable to come to grips with the tragic death of his son. Leaning on his strong Calvinistic background, he gradually came to the conclusion: <b>"God killed my son!"</b> He triumphantly informed us that "then, and only then, did I get peace about the matter." A sovereign God killed his son, and therein he found ground for a great spiritual victory, he assured us."</span></blockquote>
Here is where Dr. White chose to start his quotation.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"I thought to myself, "I wonder what he would say if his daughter had been raped?" Would he not be able to come to grips with the matter until he concluded victoriously that "God raped my daughter!" God forbid! Perish the thought! Some views do not need to be refuted; they simply need to be stated."</span></blockquote>
Dr. White responds:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"...I can only say that such responses betray a tremendous lack of familiarity with the great Reformed writers of the past who have spoken to the matter of suffering with such power and depth that we all can benefit greatly from listening to their words."</span></i></blockquote>
As always his first concern is his historic theology.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"You simply cannot honestly look at someone and say, 'God has a purpose in your life' when you have to say on the other hand 'God had nothing to do with the death of your loved one.' The greatest joy in death, the greatest comfort in sorrow, is knowing that there is <u>nothing</u> that is purposeless, <u>nothing</u> that is mere chance. </span></i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">Arminianism simply cannot provide this kind of comfort."</span></i></blockquote>
I'm telling you right now, I wanted to vomit when I read this. So, it is supposed to be <b><i>comforting</i></b> when someone says "God killed your son!" or "God raped your daughter!" and then "Don't worry, He had a purpose in doing it!"<br />
<br />
He writes:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Calvinists affirm the biblical truth:" </span></i></blockquote>
And then quotes <b>Psa 135:6</b> as though it says that God kills sons, and rapes daughters. Then he goes on about the verse:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Sadly, the Arminian reads this as 'Man does whatever he pleases, and God handles the rest, as long as it does not impinge upon the ultimate freedom of the creature."</span></i> </blockquote>
Really? Is that what's at issue here? Can Dr. White provide a quote of ANYONE (let alone Dr. Geisler) translating or interpreting this verse this way or is this simply a completely false accusation made to inflame the reader of TPF into missing the fact that he is failing to answer the "concern" Dr. Geisler raised? Then he writes:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"God works all things after the counsel of His will, including those things that involve the creature, man. As the Bible testifies:"</span></i></blockquote>
Then he quotes <b>Ps 33:10-11</b> as though it supports the idea that God kills sons and rapes daughters. Neither Psalm supports Determinism where <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"God decrees whatsoever comes to pass"</span></i> they say that God does what He wills, and man cannot stop Him. There is a HUGE difference, that only the reader blinded by Calvinistic indoctrination could ignore.<br />
<br />
Does the reader feel I'm being too agressive with Dr. White here?<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"God's purpose is always just, holy, and good. All things resound to His glory, even when we cannot see how this will be. Even the greatest atrocities in history the Calvinist knows were not purposeless not senseless. Even if we cannot see the purpose, we have the promise of God that a purpose did, and does, exist. God is still on His throne."</span></i></blockquote>
START SARCASM: So when God kills a son, or rapes a daughter His purpose is always just, holy and good. In fact when He kills a son or rapes a daughter is resounds to His glory, even if we can't see how. Even the greatest atrocities of history were done by God with purpose. He is still on His throne. END SARCASM<br />
<br />
I could hardly contain myself when I read this passage while laying in bed Tuesday night last week. Even now I want to vomit. This is vile, evil, blasphemous, dreadful, and wholly unacceptable! God uses all things, He works all things to the glory of Himself. That is when a sinner means it for evil God means it for good. He <b><i>uses</i></b> all things, He does not decree all things.<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<b><i>GOD HAS NEVER EVER RAPPED, OR DECREED THE RAPE OF, ANYONE AND HE NEVER WILL!!!<span style="font-size: x-large;"> </span></i></b></div>
<br />
God does kill people who have violated His will in specific instances. Moses is an example. He does not personally kill everyone who dies. He kills those who would interfere with His plans if He does not. God is not the author of sin. I challenge any Calvinist to prove otherwise. Be forewarned I will treat you as the blasphemous false teacher that you are if you should attempt to do so.<br />
<br />
The keen reader will note that while Dr. White began his interaction with <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"this is false"</span></i> he never once even attempts to show that God does NOT cause evil, which is what the concern Dr. Geisler brought up was. He simply tries to justify God causing evil with the idea that He would have some unknown holy purpose...<br />
<br />
Dr. White fails to give the next concern any context at all, but I'll give it as it is stated:<br />
<br />
<b>Concern:</b> <span style="color: #0c343d;">"When the same logic </span>(as the God killed my son, rapped my daughter speech)<span style="color: #0c343d;"> is applied to why people go to hell, the tragedy is even more evident."</span><br />
<br />
Dr. White says it is sad to read the following:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"Actually, there is no real difference on this point between extreme Calvinists and fatalistic Islam in which Allah says, in the holy book (the Qur'an), "If We [majestic plural] had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance; but the Word from Me Will come true. 'I will fill Hell with jinn and men all together'" (Sura 32:13).</span></blockquote>
Dr. Geisler continues, but Dr. White only quotes the final sentence:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"Lest the reader think this is an unfair caricature of extreme Calvinism in Muslim terms, listen to the ords of the famous Puritan Calvinist William Ames: "[Predestination] depends upon no cause, reason, or outward condition, but proceeds purely from the will of him [God] who predestines." Further, "there are two kinds of predestination, election and rejection or reprobation... the first act of election is to will the glory of his grace in the salvation of some men..." Likewise, "Reprobation is the predestination of certain men so that the glory of God's justices may be shown them."</span></blockquote>
All he responds with is:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"It is clearly Dr. Geisler's purpose to say that these two statements are parallel. Yet, to make such a statement shows tremendous disregard for simple accuracy, let alone respect for Ames or any who believe as he. Allah does not redeem rebel sinners out of grace and mercy. Allah does not give His Son for <u>utterly undeserving men and women.</u> Allah does not do these things to bring glory to his grace! To ignore this fundamental, definitional difference is to engate in the rankest sort of adhominem argumentation that is far below the kind of material we would expect to come from Dr. Geisler's pen"</span></i></blockquote>
So what is to be said of someone who does not answer the concerns or the "big questions" that are obviously right to raise? Is it not parallel to say that both theological systems have their deity deciding to fill Hell with men and there's nothing men can do about it? That one of them saves a few out of the Calvinist's view of grace hardly changes Dr. Geisler's point, which is that Calvinism has God behaving like Allah by intentionally sending people to hell simply because He wants to.<br />
<br />
<b>Concern:</b> <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Next, Dr. Geisler alleges that Calvinism lays the ground for universalism."</span></i> Dr. White does not provide a quote at all. Here is what Dr. Geisler actually says:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"The one million dollar question for the extreme Calvinists is this: If God can save anyone to whom He gives the desire to be saved, then why does He not give the desire to all people? The answer can only be that God does not really will that all be saved. It does not suffice to claim that God's justice rightly condemns those who do not believe, since even faith is a gift from God that He could give to all if He wanted to do so.... For if God can save all without violating their free choice, and if God is all-loving, then there is no reason why all will not be saved. After all, according to extreme Calvinists, God's love is irresistible. Hence, such love focused on all men would inevitably bring all to salvation."</span></blockquote>
Now obviously Dr. Geisler is bringing up a concern that Dr. White would take issue with because Dr. White says that while God is "all-loving" that is omnibenevolent that He is also somehow (inexplicably) selectively-loving. We saw last time how that just doesn't work, but Dr. White wants it to work. Instead of answering the concern he writes:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This is false. Just the opposite is true. Arminianism has opened that door, not Calvinism. Universalists detest the concept of justice, holiness and glory that is part and parcel of Reformed theology. Universalists are the great proponents of free willism, not the freedom of God nor the glory of God."</span></i></blockquote>
Now his answer sounds great until you read what it is an attempted answer to. I think that Dr. Geisler's concern is ill-conceived, perhaps even contrived. It is not a concern that I would raise. However, Dr. White fails to answer the actual concern... again.<br />
<br />
The next concern...<br />
<br />
<b>Concern:</b> <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"It is then said that Calvinism undermines trust in the love of God."</span></i> Again he fails to provide a quote from Dr. Geisler.<br />
<br />
Predictably he responds with:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This is false, and just the opposite is true. Calvinism presents a love that is powerful and effective, not a love that tries and tries and tries but fails because it is dependent upon the synergistic cooperation of the objects of that love."</span></i></blockquote>
This tries and tires and fails straw-man is exhausting. He never once is able to quote Dr. Geisler saying that, or teaching the concept... yet he ascribes it to him a MULTITUDE of times in TPF. He goes on:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The love proclaimed by Scriptural Calvinism is a love that saves, a love that lasts, the love about which we sing, 'Oh love that will not let me go....'"</span></i></blockquote>
Unless you're God's Elect Nation called Israel... if you're the Elect Nation of Israel you can be replaced by a body of Elect Believers in Christ who will get all the blessings you were promised.... but not really only in so-called 'spiritual' ways. Further I don't know what <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Scriptural Calvinism"</span></i> is... so far I have yet to find Calvinism in any passage of Scripture.<br />
<br />
START SARCASM: I wonder why God casting Israel aside and giving the blessings <b><i>promised</i></b> to it to another group of people would make people have trouble trusting God? END SARCASM.<br />
<br />
But here is the concern as raised by Dr. Geisler, do you think that Dr. White answered it?<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"The blunt and honest answer of extreme Calvinism to this dilemma, in the face of the unavoidable logic leading to universalism, is to deny that God is all loving. In short--redemptively at least--God loves only the elect. This fits with the extreme Calvinist's belief in limited atonement (see Chapter 5). For if God loves only the elect, then why should Christ have died for more than the elect?<br />But any diminution of God's love will sooner or later eat away at one's confidence in God's benevolence. And when it does it can have a devastating effect on one's life."</span></blockquote>
Dr. White doesn't bother to answer the actual concern, and even skips all of it to land on the next statement.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Indeed, at this point a most strange and incomprehensible statement is made by Dr. Geisler. He says that extreme Calvinism has been the occasion for disbelief and even atheism for many."</span></i> </blockquote>
He picks up on a very odd footnote in CBF that really makes no sense...The footnote talks about how Hell was the reason for Darwin and Bertrand Russell used to not believe in God as though Hell is exclusive to extreme Calvinism. Instead of answering the actual concern Dr. White focuses on the footnote, quoting it instead of the actual concern.... answering it instead of answering the concern. Then after engaging the footnote he offers:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We believe that a strong proclamation of the God of Scripture is the only basis upon which to answer atheists and their cavils against the Christian faith. Giving in to them and affirming the humanists doctrine of free will is not the way to win the battle. We believe there is nothing gained by hiding the Bible's plain teaching of the sovereignty of God simply to pacify the humanist who is in active rebellion against God's sovereign power in the first place. A God who would create and yet not maintain control over His creation is hardly a God worthy of defending against atheism."</span></i></blockquote>
Well that's an action packed response... one reading it without reading Geisler might think that Dr. White had schooled him. Here's what this rant was responding to though...<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"A partially loving God is less than ultimately good. And what is less than ultimately good is not worthy of worship, since worship is attributing worth-ship to the object of worship. But if the extreme Calvinists' view of 'God' is not the Ultimate Good, then it does not represent God at all. The God of the Bible is infinitely loving, that is omnibenevolent. He wills the good of all creation (Acts 14:17; 17:25), and He desires the salvation of all souls (Ezek 18:23, 30-32; Hos 11:1-5, 8-9; John 3:16, 1Tim 2:4; 2Pet 3:9)"</span></blockquote>
One wonders if the Calvinist is concerned with presenting the God of the Scriptures he is not concerned with the passages or even the concern that Dr. Geisler brings up. Yet Geisler is not finished:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"At first, one is impressed with a God that supposedly loves him more than others and has elected him to eternal salvation. But upon further reflection, he cannot help but wonder why, if this God is so loving, He does not so love the world. When this though sets in, the "amazing love" at first experienced by the elect turns to "partial love," and finally to a recognition that God actually hates the non-elect. In the words of extreme Calvinist William Ames, God "is said to hate them [the non-elect] (Rom 9:13). This hatred is negative or privative, because it denies election. But it has a positive content, for God has willed that some should not have eternal life.'<br />This doubt is implicit in the confession of some of the most pious persons. Indeed, were it no for their deep piety, it is doubtful they could long maintain such a belief. Strong Calvinist Charles Spurgeon admitted, "We do not know why God has purposed to save some and not others... We cannot say why his love to all men is not the same as his love to the Elect." If one allows this to gnaw at his mind long enough, it can turn him from being a particularist into being a universalist--from one unfortunate belief to another."</span></blockquote>
So what are Dr. White's answers to these concerns? You've already read them... he has none.<br />
<br />
<b>Concern:</b> Calvinism undermines the motive for evangelism.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Despite the popularity of this accusation, it is false. Those who evangelize out of concern for man's free will rather than out of obedience to Christ and His command, do so for the wrong reasons, and will soon be disillusioned as men reject their message and bring persecution against them."</span></i></blockquote>
I've been engaged in personal evangelism actively since the spring of 2006. It may not be a long illustrious career but I have personally witnessed to thousands of people I've met on the streets of cities in Canada, to many thousands using tracts, and many thousands more through radio ministry. I have yet to be disillusioned... of course I don't do it "out of concern for man's free will" and I don't know anyone who does. I do it because I've been saved, and I know any who hear and believe the Gospel I preach will also be saved.<br />
<br />
Dr. White goes on to say that this concern is most troubling to him personally because he and his group of people are often the only Christians witnessing at the semi-annual General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City, Utah.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We are the only group who is attendance at every single Conference."</span></i></blockquote>
Impressive...<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We have talked to Arminians who wonder why we bother, since "those are the hard cases anyway." Yes, they are the hard cases. And if I believed for a second that it was up to their "free will" and a grace that cannot change a heart, cannot renew a mind, I would never set foot outside that place again. But I do not believe in free will, nor do I believe in a grace that is a mere helping force and not a renewing power of God."</span></i></blockquote>
I don't know anyone who would ask "why bother?" No quote is offered, no connection to Dr. Geisler, it is nothing more than another straw-man that Dr. White apparently thinks he can knock down easily.<br />
<br />
Yet Dr. Geisler does offer specific examples.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"Many years ago a young man went to his spiritual mentor and informed him that he would like to be a missionary to the heathen. His hyper-Calvinistic advisor told him that if God wanted to save the world, He could do it without him. Fortunately, the young man did not heed his mentor's advice. His name was William Carey, famous missionary to India.<br />God only knows for sure how many other extreme Calvinists feel the same. As a matter of fact, if their view is correct, then we need not get excited about missions for several reasons. First of all, God does not love the whole world in a redemptive sense, but only the elect. Second Christ only died for the elect, not the world. Third no one has the faith to believe unless God gives it to him. Fourth, God has willed to give faith only to a select few, "the frozen chosen." Fith, when God's power works on the hearts of the unbelievers He wants to save, there is absolutely nothing they can do to refuse it. God's power is irresistible (see Chapter 5). If all these were true--thank God they are not-- it would be understandably heart to muster up much enthusiasm for missions or evangelism."</span></blockquote>
Dr. White doesn't even bother to interact with the concern... but Dr. Geisler is not finished.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"Charles Spurgeon pointedly remarked of hyper-Calvinists in his day: "But there are some people so selfish that, provided they go to heaven, it is enough that they are in the covenant. They are dear enough people of God..." But "They say it is equal whether God ordains a man's life or death. They would sit still to hear men damned... They seem to have no feeling for anyone but themselves. They have dried the heart of of them by some cunning slight of hand." </span></blockquote>
Dr. White's beloved Spurgeon, himself the most famous Calvinist, seemed to believe that Calvinism can in fact undermine the motives for Evangelism. Does Dr. White even mention this concern? Of course not... and Dr. Geisler isn't finished.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"John Gill, who according to some was the originator of hyper-Calvinism, is a practical example of the destructive influence on missions and evangelism. Spurgeon noted that "During the pastorate of my venerated predecessor, Dr. Gill, this Church, instead of increasing, gradually decreased... But mark this, from the day when Fuller, Carey, Sutcliffe, and others, met together to send out missionaries to India, the sun began to dawn of a gracious revival which is not over yet." Of Gill, Spurgeon added bluntly: "The system of theology with which many identify his [Gill's] name has chilled many churches to their very soul, for it has led them to omit the free invitations of the gospel, and to deny that it is the duty of sinners to believe in Jesus."</span></blockquote>
Would Dr. White dare interact with this from Spurgeon? It is the duty of sinners to believe in Jesus? 'But this one thing they cannot do!' must be Dr. White's response to his beloved famous Calvinist! </div>
<div>
<br /></div>
<div>
Dr. Geisler has still not finished this point even yet.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"Lain Murray adds, "In this connection it is noteworthy that just as renewed understanding of the free offer of the Gospel led to the age of overseas missions in England, so it did also--by different means--in Scotland." Robert Moffat, a result of that revival, wrote, "Much depends on us who have received the ministry of reconciliation, assured that God our Saviour willeth the salvation of all." The truth is, if it were to come down to one incorrect belief over another, the belief that God desires all to be saved is more consistent with <u>universal </u>atonement than with <u>limited</u> atonement.</span></blockquote>
Yet Dr. White interacts with NONE of the above. He simply says that the concern is personally troubling and that his group of people are faithful to witness at a semi-annual conference. Then he offers this lecture:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Indeed, the decline in American evangelicalism that manifests itself in the substitution of programs, drama, coffee bars, and anemic preaching that avoids a call to repentance can be laid directly at the feet of Arminianism, not Calvinism."</span></i></blockquote>
Do you go to a Reformed church and... Do you have a cool youth pastor? 'nuff said. Do you have a cool rock band that plays Sunday morning? 'nuff said. Yet Dr. White continues:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"When you have to worry about "offending" the almighty creature you have to start using non-biblical methods of "evangelism," and inevitably it is the evangel that suffers. But it is the gospel that speaks to man's true need, and it is the gospel that saves and results in changed (not slightly modified) lives. And the gospel of Scripture is the gospel of the Reformation."</span></i></blockquote>
While this all sounds very impressive, it completely ignores what Dr. Geisler brought up. Is this his idea of a rebuttal? It is also a shame that the "gospel" that Dr. White preaches is Lordship Salvation instead of the Gospel of the Christ that the Apostle Paul declared. <b>1Cor 15:1-11</b><br />
<br />
<b>Concern:</b> "Calvinism undermines the motivate for intercessory prayer" Once again Dr. White fails to quote Dr. Geisler but offers:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"This, too, is false. Indeed, we turn the accusation around on Arminianism: if the Holy Spirit is already convicting every man of sin as best He can, and if God is already "giving His all" to save a particular person, why in the world pray for that person? What good would it do?"</span></blockquote>
It is truly a shame on Dr. White that his "rebuttal" is so full of straw-man arguments to rebut. It is a shame on all those who have praised this book as well. Giving His all? Really? Find me a quote of Dr. Geisler anywhere anytime let alone in CBF of him saying ANYTHING of the kind. Dr. White continues with his ridiculous punching match with the straw-man for a while and then offers:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Intercessory prayer is, by nature, Reformed. That is, it recognizes the sovereignty of God and His ability to change the hearts of men! Every such prayer is tacit recognition that the biblical doctrine is the reformed one."</span></i></blockquote>
Once again we find Dr. White abandoning his theology in order to defend it. If God has in His "Eternal Decrees of God" already decreed everything that will ever happen... everyone who will be saved... everyone who will go to Hell... every rape... scraped knee... breast cancer test result... in Eternity Past THEN GOD HIMSELF IS NOT FREE TO INTERCEDE SO ASKING HIM TO IS ABSURD. Not surprisingly Dr. White fails, yet again, to interact with the actual concern raised by Dr. Geisler.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"While prayer cannot change the nature of God (see Chapter 1), it can be used by God to implement His will to change people and things. Joshua prayed, and the sun stood still (Josh 10). Elijah prayed, and the heavens were shut up for three and a half years (1Kings 17-18; James 5:17). Moses prayed, and God's judgment on Israel was stayed (Num 14). While prayer is not a means to get our will done in heaven, it is a means by which God gets His will done on Earth. Things do change because we pray, for a sovereign God has ordained to use prayer as a means to the end of accomplishing these things."</span></blockquote>
I'll ask the same question I asked in <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/07/debaters-potter-part-7-brief-view-of.html">Part 7</a></i></b>. Does this sound like the person or theology that Dr. White has been "rebutting"? Dr. Geisler gets to the concern:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #0c343d;">"But if we believe God will do these things even if we do not pray, then there is no need for prayer. What we believe about how God's sovereignty relates to our free will does make a difference in how--and how much--we pray." </span></blockquote>
But Dr. White doesn't see fit to interact with the actual concern. Instead he just repeats his Calvinist mantra about God changing people so they can believe... Dr. Geisler doesn't limit intercessory prayer to just asking for people to be saved, but instead speaks of prayer for all things.<br />
<br />
<b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">What Now?</span></i></b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Chosen But Free presents what it calls a "balanced view" of divine election. We have seen that it does nothing of the sort. It presents Arminianism under the guise of "moderate Calvinism.""</span></i></blockquote>
Dr. White asks "What now?" and makes the above statement. I have a sincere question for anyone who has read TPF or even just this series of articles, and who has NOT read CBF. What is Dr. Geisler's view of Election? Can you even begin to explain what he says about it? I can't possibly see how you could. Why? Because Dr. White has failed in every way possible to interact with what CBF actually presents. While I vehemently disagree with Dr. White, anyone who has read this series of articles will not be surprised by the arguments and positions they find espoused in TPF when they read it. I have been honest with the man, his theology, and his arguments. I cannot say he has done likewise with Geisler, not by a long shot.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"But the single most important issue that we wish to communicate to the reader is this: CBF's attempts to defend Arminianism through the use of Scripture fail, consistently. On an exegetical basis CBF does not pass the most cursory examination, let alone an in-depth critique. The reader has seen examples of eisegesis in every single chapter of CBF. Surely the strength of Reformed theology is its biblical bais, and the weakness of Arminian theology is its philosophical basis. The reformed position begins with Scriptural truths. The Arminian position begins with philosophical necessities, and we have seen, over and over again, the result of forcing philosophical presuppositions into the text of Scripture."</span></i></blockquote>
Perhaps Dr. White is thinking of different books other than The Potter's Freedom and Chosen But Free. He does seem to reference CBF... but I cannot remember a single instance where Dr. White showed Dr. Geisler using eisegesis. <b><i>I may simply not remember.. that is possible.</i></b> However, since I read CBF and have a fairly good idea of the chapters it contains I know<b><i> for a fact</i></b> that Dr. White did not even mention most of the book let alone give examples from every chapter, whether showing esisgesis or not.. he simply ignored most of CBF.<br />
<br />
Go ahead and look at my brief view of the first two chapters of Chosen But Free in <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/07/debaters-potter-part-7-brief-view-of.html">Part 7 of this series</a></i></b>. Did Dr. White interact with any of what he brought up in even just these two chapters? It it were not so dangerous for Believers who take TPF seriously, it would be laughable that it has <b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The Rebuttal of Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free"</span></i></b> in its title. Frankly, TPF interacts with very little of CBF and none of it's main points as they are made. Instead TPF takes the reader on wild goose chases against various theological systems...<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"A person who believes in sola scriptura (Scripture alone is the final and only infallible rule of faith for the Church) and in tota Scriptura (one must believe <u>all</u> of Scripture, not just parts) must wrestle with the issues raised in this book. A person who cannot provide a contextually-based, fair and honest interpretation of such passages as John 6:37-45 Romans 8:28-9:23, or Eph 1:3-11, <u>must</u> face this fact and be willing to abandon long-held and maybe even cherished traditions."</span></i></blockquote>
As I have gone through all of these passages, and every single argument raised in TPF, I wonder if Dr. White would follow this <span style="color: #274e13;">"must"</span>...<br />
<br />
That concludes my interaction with the main text of TPF. I quoted from CBF a great deal this time because this final chapter was actually more about that book than the entire rest of TPF was. As is clearly demonstrated, and which must be without controversy, Dr. White simply ignores what CBF really says and offers answers to arguments he would apparently rather answer. I'll now move on to a brief look at the appendices and the final pages of the book.<br />
<br />
<b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Appendix 1 "Dr. Geisler's Class Project Reviewed and Refuted"</span></i></b><br />
<br />
Dr. White found out that Dr. Geisler added an appendix to CBF that discussed TPF. He has decided it must be a class project and not something that Dr. Geisler himself has written. I'm not going to bother with much of it because it truly is nothing more than foolishness... an argument about who said this or that... he takes issue with:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The next thing I noted was the glaring presence of ad hominem argumentation, even in teh midst of accusing me of using it in The Potter's Freedom (hearafter TPF)...."Pf offers virtually unlimited opportunities for beginning theology students to identify logical fallacies" Later we are told, "the author takes great pride in his exegetical stills" even though we are not given any references or basis upon which this assertion is made. Further examples follow in the review. The appendix says TPF engages in name-calling, ad hominem argumentation, and poisoning the well, which, if true, would be serious charges."</span></i></blockquote>
I guess all I can respond to this with has already been provided in The Debatter's Potter series itself. If anyone thinks that Dr. Geisler's "class project" (poisoning the well... ad hominem.. name calling...) misses the mark then you have not read this series of articles, you have not read TPF or you are blinded by your admiration of Dr. White. I see no other possible explanation, but if you do please comment.<br />
<br />
Dr. White takes issue with Dr. Geisler (or his class...) asking "Where's the Exegesis?" and he writes:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"TPF contains literally hundreds of pages of positive exegetical presentation"?</span></i></blockquote>
Again, all I need to respond with has already been provided here. Perhaps I missed these hundreds of pages while I was examining the book so closely?<br />
<br />
He closes the Appendix with:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Unless Dr. Geisler can explain how this kind of material has some relevance to the actual topic at hand, it should be pulled from circulation with apologies to all concerned, but especially to his own readers. There is no other course to follow."</span></i></blockquote>
One could suggest the exact same to Dr. White with regard to TPF, seeing as it largely ignores the book it is titled as a rebuttal of.<br />
<br />
<b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">Appendix 2: Two Controversial Texts</span></i></b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This work has been blessed of God over the past eight years. It has challenged, and enlightened, many who struggle to work through the issues surrounding God's kingly freedom and man's responsibility in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The initial range of discussion was fixed by the claims and arguments of Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free, but that work opened the door to a full presentation of the doctrines of God's sovereign grace. It was the biblical nature of those doctrines that has been used to bring many to an understanding, appreciation, and love of those truths.<br />Two texts that were not discussed in the first edition of this book will be examined, albeit briefly, in this addition to the original text of The Potter's Freedom." </span></i></blockquote>
<br />
I wonder if Joel Osteen believes his work has been "blessed of God" because "many" people have joined him in his stadium sized church (with some 38,000 people attending weekly)?<br />
<br />
The first of the two "controversial texts" is <b>2Peter 2:1-3 </b>which is mentioned in CBF but never addressed in TPF.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The second text is never mentioned in CBF, so why include it here? Mainly because this work has come to have a role that I did not originally foresee: as an introduction to reformed theology, it would be useful to address the most common test I have heard cited to me that was not itself raised by Dr. Geisler, that being 1Tim 4:10"</span></i></blockquote>
If TPF has become an introduction to Reformed Theology, and is as has been demonstrated a vacuum of evidence and argumentation for the theology, one wonders why anyone is still becoming Reformed these days... I'm tempted to assume it is due to the biblical illiteracy of his audience, but I suspect there is much more going on than just that.<br />
<br />
Of <b>1Tim 4:10</b> Dr. White offers:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This particular section of Paul's epistle to Timothy contains a number of exhortations, and there is not a single, over-arching contextual argument being pursued. As such, each segment of the text has to be carefully examined and we must take care not to force the text into foreign context simply because it is possible to do so."</span></i></blockquote>
Look at this point, with all the experience I've now had with Dr. White, this is just plain laughable.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The first observation to be offered is that unlike the texts we have examined before, where we have a specific discourse on a particular subject, this passage mentions the role of God as Savior "in passing". No explanation is provided, and the reader is to understand these words in light of a pre-existing, shared belief."</span></i></blockquote>
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"In passing"</span></i>? <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"the reader is to understanding these words in light of a pre-existing, shared belief"</span></i>? Is this really exegesis?<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This statement is a brief comment, made in passing. As such, sound exegetical practice would require caution in pressing this text into service as a foundational prooftext for either side."</span></i></blockquote>
Do the readers remember what Dr. White called <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"the most obvious passages which show saving faith is a gift of God"</span></i>? If any reader missed it, and therefore thinks we should take Dr. White's words of caution seriously please go back and read <b><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/11/the-debaters-potter-part-18-chapter-12b.html">Part 18</a></b>.<br />
<br />
Before I become entirely too dismissive of Dr. White I must quote something where he comes close to making a sound argument. There is much truth in the basis for his argument, but as I'll show, it simply does not work with this passage.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #274e13;"><i>"The Reformed interpreter recognizes that here, as in so many other places, reading "all people" extensively is far more indicative of modern Western thinking than it is New Testament thinking. Instead, recognizing the theme in Paul's epistles to Timothy that militates against the Jewish exclusivists (those who would limit God's blessings to those in the covenant, those bearing the covenant signs), they would argue that "all people" points us to Jews and Gentiles, or, to use more specific biblical language, "men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation" (Revelation 5:9). Hences the comment is an assertion of God's Saviorhood of Jews and Gentiles, over against the Jewish exclusivists, and is not a commentary on the extent of the atonement, intention of the atonement, etc. and etc."</i></span></blockquote>
Yes Paul does deal with this the theme of God saving both Jews and Gentiles in many places. However, there is no grammatical reason to believe that is what he is doing here. There is merely the requirement to find some way to save Reformed Theology from an obvious assault on it from God's own Word.<br />
<br />
BUT, let's just say (for the sake of giggles) that Dr. White is correct. Let's read this passage using something I taught Believers to do in my book Fail-Safe For Fallacy. Let's exchange Dr. White's explanation for the words of the Text he is explaining and see if the sentence still makes sense.<br />
<br />
Here is the verse as it is translated in the NKJV.<br />
<br />
<b>1Tim 4:10</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i>For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.</i></b></span></span></blockquote>
Now here it is with Dr. White's explanation.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><i><span style="color: #274e13;">For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of both Jews and Gentiles, especially of those who believe.</span></i></b></blockquote>
Does it work? Here's the problem... <b><i><span style="color: #660000;">"especially those who believe"</span></i></b> tells us that Paul is saying that God is the Saviour of those that don't believe, and especially those who do. You can redefine "all men" using whatever Calvinistic justification you want but Paul's point still stands. He is the savior of all, and especially those who believe.<br />
<br />
Dr. White literally goes on for pages and pages about the Greek of "all men"... but misses Paul's point. He is the Saviour of all, especially those who believe. White's theology simply cannot withstand this test.<br />
<br />
Then he gets to what he calls:<br />
<br />
<b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">2 Peter 2:1 and the False Teachers</span></i></b><br />
<br />
<b><i><span style="color: #660000;">UPDATE:</span></i></b> I have revised this section because it was written poorly by myself late in the evening while I was rushing to finish. I should have just left it unfinished until I could do it correctly. My argument with Dr. White is unchanged, but hopefully it will make sense to everyone now. :)<br /><br />He quotes simply the first verse, but I want to quote the first three to keep the passage intact.<br />
<br />
<b>2Peter 2:1-3</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text 2Pet-2-1">But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. </span><span class="text 2Pet-2-2" id="en-NKJV-30503"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">2 </sup>And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. </span><span class="text 2Pet-2-3" id="en-NKJV-30504"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">3 </sup>By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
Dr. White introduces his argument with:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Here the Apostle Peter harkens back to the story of Israel to draw a parallel between the people of God in those days and the primitive Christian church in his own.... Though they claim to be servants of God, bearing His authority, they betray the very position they claim to possess by teaching and preaching falsehoods."</span></i></blockquote>
Then he explains:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"Peter himself establishes the parallel to the people of Israel with the words, "but false prophets among the people."</span></i></blockquote>
This is the seed of one of the ways how Dr. White will explain the verse. He explains these false teachers Peter is warning about as some Jewish objectors to the Christian faith.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"It is appropriate then to seek Old Testament backgrounds to the concepts found in Peter's words, as he would expect his audience to be drawing upon their knowledge of the Old Testament people of God."</span></i></blockquote>
When I first read this I found it completely unreasonable, but there is some reason to expect that if he spoke of "the people" that it would bring to mind the issues that the "the people" had faced and gone through. I do think that stating what he think's Peter would have "expected" is over the top given that he cannot establish this assertion from the Text.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"To this point I have not raised any of the most problematic issues relating to the interpretation of this passage. I have done so on purpose. I wish to demonstrate that the text can be fairly and contextually read without even taking notice of all the areas of dispute and battle."</span></i></blockquote>
I've removed (from my first version of this article) his explanation of the verse with out the "problematic issues." It was in short, that this is some sort of transitional discussion talking about disobedience moving into judgment. But anyway, so if you take out the troubling parts it makes perfect sense? If we decide that Peter is teaching about something else, and find a way to make that something else fit with the remaining words (after we remove those which are most troubling) we can show that the passage can possibly make sense without the troubling bits... He did this <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"on purpose"</span></i> and admitted it? I think this is just some sort of distraction and it is a strange misstep for the debater to make, especially in the midst of such a debate worthy presentation.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"I believe the primary objection to be raised to the misuse of this text is a proof of universal atonement is to be found in the non-contextual nature of the assertion. That is, this text is not about the atonement. It is about false teachers and their coming judgment. To read the atonement into the text is to abuse its rightful meaning."</span></i></blockquote>
There are two ways he's going to explain the verse. One of them is going to be about what the word "bought" means.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We have see how clear and compelling the argument is for the perfection of the atoning work of Christ from those texts that specifically address the topic (Hebrews, Romans). We dare not overthrow the plain and clear on the basis of what we <u>think</u> a text might be <u>implying</u> elsewhere."</span></i></blockquote>
Apparently before we get to what "bought" means we have to be reminded that to question Dr. White's theology is to question the "perfection" of Christ's Cross-work. Yes we did see just how "clear" his arguments are which he claims, using emotional blackmail, shows the "perfection" of Christ's work. Unfortunately for his argument, the clear passages on the Atonement agree with the fact that Christ did in fact die for these false teachers, along with everyone else. You can see that discussed in <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/11/the-debaters-potter-part-15-chapter-10.html">Part 15</a></i></b> and <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.ca/2012/11/the-debaters-potter-part-16-chapter-11.html">Part 16</a></i></b>.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The primary use of this text is by those who deny the perfection of the work of Christ in salvation."</span></i></blockquote>
See... emotional blackmail. How is this type of argumentation seen as valid at all? If you disagree with White apparently you're calling Christ's cross-work "imperfect." The man ought to be ashamed of such a practice yet he repeats it over and over.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"And they say "Look, it says Jesus died for them, so clearly, these are true believers who go astray and are then lost..." </span></i></blockquote>
Yet another distraction is brought up. Dr. White begins to argue against the possibility of a Believer loosing their Salvation. In a debate it is very helpful to the one presenting an argument to get their audience to agree with them several times leading up to the big point. It's also a proven sales technique. This is nothing more than a debate tool here.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"And does the text actually say that Jesus died for these men?...The assumption is made that "Master" is automatically Jesus as Savior, and that "bought" is to be read as synonymous with "died so as to save.""</span></i></blockquote>
So after agreeing with the man several times the audience is expected to follow this assertion. That reading "the Master who bought them" as redemption is just an assumption. Oh wait, Dr. White makes sure not to call it "redemption" but instead uses the awkward phrase "died so as to save." How do I know this is an intentional act? Because his argument will require to meanings for "bought" to be used here and one of them will be redemptive. <br /><br />
To redeem someone or something is to buy them. If they have been redeemed they are "bought." These false teachers whose destruction does not slumber have been bought. But White's argument has hardly even started so let's not "assume" we have the answer just yet.<br />
<br />
Dr. White talks about how there is a different term for Lord or Master here than is usually used for Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is the Greek word <b><i><a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1203&t=KJV">Despotes</a></i></b>. He also notes that the term bought, or the Greek <b><i><a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G59&t=KJV">Agorazoare</a></i></b> is mentioned without a price... a simple search of the NT shows that "bought" when it means purchase doesn't always require a price to be mentioned.<br />
<br />
Dr. White says this terminology <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"...points us to an ownership issue, not a redemptive issue."</span></i> He says <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The Bible uses the same kind of language elsewhere."</span></i> Then he quotes <b>Deut 32:5-6</b> and offers:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>"Here, Yahweh, the God of Israel, refers to having "bought" the people of Israel. But clearly this is an action of Sovereignty, not of redemption, for the perallel is "He has made you and established you." Here the Hebrew is translated in teh Greek Septuagint as ktaomai. Gary Long has rightly observed "The two words ktaomai and agorazoare are used interchangeably in the two Old Testament parallel accounts.... ktaomai is translated, respectively bought and buy in the NIV and acquired and obtain in the NASB. "</i></blockquote>
OK does anyone reading think that Exodus didn't happen? That God did not redeem, or purchase out of, Egypt the nation of Israel? Dr. White makes a long convoluted argument about how "bought" can really mean "own" in an intrinsic way... and finds what he thinks is an example of it in <b>Deut 32:5-6</b>. As complicated, long winded and full of smoke and mirrors as this argument is.. it is really is built on one simple assertion.<br />
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He asserts that in <b>Deut 32:6</b> the phrases <b><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><i>Is</i> He not your Father, <i>who</i> bought you?</span></b><br />
<b><span style="background-color: #f3f3f3; color: #660000; font-family: inherit;">Has He not made you and established you?</span></b> are parallel and thus mean the same thing. <br /><br />Is that what Moses was indicating however? You'll have to read Exodus to find out. In short no, that's not what Moses meant. The Lord bought them out of Egypt and established them in the land. These two statements are two different things.<br />
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Dr. White continues.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"We must insist that the text does not say that the Master tries to purchase, makes purchase possible, etec..."</span></i></blockquote>
Again, his argument is so convoluted and weak that he must stack it against a Straw-Man instead of the actual challenges brought against his theology. He <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"must insist"</span></i> that the Text doesn't say what no one says it says? Well that's good, me too! *smile*<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i style="color: #274e13;">"...but that as an accomplished fact, these false teachers had been "purchased" </i>[that is Dr. White is saying owned intrinsically because God created them]<i style="color: #274e13;"> by the despotes, the Despot, the sovereign Master. Their rebellion against him brings their destruction, a destruction that has been from "long ago"(2:3)."</i> </blockquote>
Does this even make sense in Peter's teaching? Is that what Peter would have "expected" his audience to understand? Dr. White then quotes Wayne Grudem, who notes the redemption of Israel that Dr. White forgot about when looking at <b>Deut 32:5-6</b>, and talks about how God bought them out of Egypt. <br /><br />
Grudem connects these false teachers to false teachers in Israel after the Exodus who by their false teaching denied the Father who had bought them out of Egypt. The last sentence of the quote has Grudem writing of <b>2Pet 2:1</b> and saying <i><span style="color: #20124d;">"Christ's specific redemptive work on the cross is not in view in this verse."</span></i><br />
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While White's argument stands on a parallel equivalence that does not exist, Grudem's argument depends on these new false teachers actually being Jewish objectors to the Christian faith. Just like the Text doesn't show the parallel, the Text doesn't say these false teachers who will be among us are Jewish. It does however at least seem to show that the false teachers that will be (and today surely are) among us are denying the Lord, the Despotes who has the right to punish, in similar ways and they will seem to have a similar fate. It is a comparison of the two to show what will happen, not an equivalence of the two.<br /><br />Having momentarily abandoned his intrinsic ownership argument Dr. White quotes Grudem explaining how these being Jewish false teachers who were, by being Jewish, bought out of Egypt. He needs the intrinsic argument to be understood because of the lack of evidence for these false teachers being Jewish objectors, but Grudem's quote is more helpful to him than his own argument. He writes:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"This view maintains the context and flows naturally into the judgment material that follows. There is no reason to read into the text all sorts of considerations that have no place in Peter's writings about false teachers."</span></i></blockquote>
OK here's the passage again. Give it a read and see if you see what Dr. White is talking bout.<br /><br />
<b>2Peter 2:1-3</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;"><b><i style="background-color: #f3f3f3;"><span class="text 2Pet-2-1">But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. </span><span class="text 2Pet-2-2" id="en-NKJV-30503"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">2 </sup>And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. </span><span class="text 2Pet-2-3" id="en-NKJV-30504"><sup class="versenum" style="vertical-align: top;">3 </sup>By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.</span></i></b></span></blockquote>
This is talking about what these new false teachers will do, and how God will treat them. Not identifying them as Jewish. No matter that it is the only way to save Dr. White's theology here, Peter simply doesn't say it or imply it. But just as the old false teachers had been bought, these new ones also were bought. Just as they had been bought out of Egypt as a picture of what Christ would do, these new false teachers have been bought at the Cross of Calvary. The false teachers today are denying the doctrine of God's faithfulness that is at hand today, just as the false teachers after the Exodus were denying the doctrine of God's faithfulness that had been at hand then. Go read Exodus, all of it, and see how the people wanted to return to Egypt because they didn't trust God in the wilderness. Go see what happened to those false teachers. Their destruction didn't slumber either.<br /><br />If we were to take the equivalence that Peter uses and apply it strictly, we could understand that these false teachers could be of the same sort that Paul deals with in Galatians and that the Letter to the Hebrews deals with. False teachers who are trying to return Jewish believers in Christ back into Judaism. If I were forced to come down on this issue that's where I would land, but I don't think Peter uses the equivalence that strictly. It seems to me Peter does not provide the details that we can force on the Text if we try because he's actually dealing with all false teachers, not just those who would see all become Jews or teach that the Church is the new "Spiritual Israel" or the "Israel of God" and the like...<br />
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There we have made it through the last argument in The Potter's Freedom. True to form, it required first the removal of some troubling concepts (that they were bought) and then the introduction of one of two concepts not found in the text, that they are actually Jewish false teachers, or that being "bought" actually means being intrinsically "owned."<br />
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Dr. White closes his book with the sentence:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span style="color: #274e13;">"The fact that this is such a key text to many only demonstrates once again how non-Reformed exegetes are forced to major on minor texts while ignoring the plain, full discussions of key issues at stake."</span></i></blockquote>
What can I say? After seeing how Dr. White treats the Scriptures, and after having spent months exhaustively discussing the <i><span style="color: #274e13;">"key issues at stake"</span></i> I simply can do nothing more than smirk at his final quip.<br />
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What follows after that final quip is <b><i>9 more pages</i></b> (on my Kindle) of what is called <b><i><span style="color: #274e13;">"More Praise For The Potter's Freedom..."</span></i></b> I'll save you the quotes...<br />
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It is my intention to have the conclusion to this series posted by this coming Friday. In it I will share my highlights from the series, high and low moments. Some thoughts on my emotional roller coaster throughout the last months of this intensive study. How creepy it has been to read Dr. White refer to himself as "we" from about halfway through the book on. Some changes I'm making as a result of having read TPF. Why I won't recommend Chosen But Free to believers seeking to investigate Calvinism any more. And a few other things that have been on my heart all these months.<br />
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Thank you all for reading these massive articles! Thank you for the encouragement I've received both publicly and privately. I'm not sure I ever had confidence that I would get this far in the series, it seemed like an impossible feat when I started. </div>
Kevlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.com4