What Is Faith? My Response To The LS Presentation.

EDIT: If you think I have a misunderstanding of LS Theology then I invite you to CLEARLY (without the use of terminology which you do not cleary define) explain what EXACTLY I misunderstand, and what EXACTLY the truth of LS Theology is. If you are UNABLE to comply with this then any comment about how I'm "misrepresenting" or "misunderstanding" LS is not welcome. Please keep this as peaceable as possible. My intention is to come to CLARITY not pick on people. Tempers flare up... but they shouldn't be the driving factor in our discussions.

EDIT 2: At the bottom of this article I'm going to give you Mark's latest itteration of his witnessing, in his own words. I ask the reader to see if what I have rendered varies at all from what Mark expresses. Please feel free to comment on this.

There is a fine line between being helpful and pride.

After spending some quality time with a Brother in the Lord this weekend past and listening to his counsel I’ve changed my course a bit. It’s not lost on me that this article must be helpful. If it is going to be helpful then it can’t just be about who is right and who is wrong. Those things will clearly enter the fray but they can’t be the focus. Realizing you are wrong, or telling someone they are isn’t really helpful until you equip them in some way to be “right.”

I confess that Mark’s Lordship Salvation (LS) presentation did not convert me to the LS point of view. Yet even still, I recognize how Mark’s passion could be compelling, especially in person. I totally relate to how those who seek Christians to live a victorious life and for the Lord to be exalted in our lives find Lordship Salvation theology to be enticing.

The issue at the start of all this was that Mark claimed there was not one single person who both understood LS theology and rejected it. I considered the likelihood of this being true as unreasonably low, but possible. What I was (and am) absolutely sure of is that from Mark’s point of view LS is so plainly true that he can’t imagine someone understanding it and rejecting it.

So I find myself looking at a massive article that includes four versions of Mark’s position in the form of witnessing, and 78 comments filled with details and definitions. There is a huge amount of information to sift through. I've done my best and I hope that is good enough to help the reader.

In order to understand what Mark was saying in his presentations I asked him to define the terminology he was using. I would then insert those definitions into his presentations. Mark mostly agreed, and finally didn’t offer any correction. However, he still indicates that my last interpretation of what he was saying showed signs that I didn’t understand.

That’s enough disclosure to give this article some context I think. If you need any more information about the discussion I had with Mark you can find it all right HERE.

We got into the definitions of many things that are important for a deeper study of LS and to show how LS theology expresses its self in the beliefs of the person who holds to it. Most of the things discussed in that thread don’t need to be brought up here again. I was striving for a full understanding. I wanted to understand LS as Mark believes it, and to understand Mark too.

The real discussion that is important is that which will have us answer the question: What is faith?

Mark declared that Salvation is by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone. He told me “Matthew 11:28-30 serves as [his] personal model for a salvation presentation.” In order to understand his presentation I asked him to define “faith” and he gave me answers to this on several occasions. Here are some of his explanations;

• Saving faith is that which is seen Heb 11:8-19

• Mark 8:34-38 is the definition of saving faith which he explained as a “faith that desires to follow after Christ.”

In Mark’s desire to ensure I properly understood what he believes to be the definition of “saving faith” he explained this;

Secondly, I've maintained all along that characteristics or evidences of saving faith are manifested in the taking of His yoke upon you and learning from Him. Any "coming" to Him that stops short of taking His yoke upon you and learning from Him indicates that there was no coming at all; and no "faith" at all.

Again, no evidences of faith - taking His yoke upon you, and learning from Him - then there is no true authentic saving faith.

Mark explained the concept of being yoked at length but I believe he was most clear at this point;

Take My yoke upon you... Kevin a yoke was a wooden beam that was placed across the necks of oxen in order to keep them together. In the Bible a yoke came to symbolize servitude. Christ wants to place His yoke on you so that He can direct your life. You are to respond to Him in obedience. THAT is what is at the core of the Christian experience; obedience to Christ.

One thing that Mark and I agreed with, at least on one level, right from the start is that Eternal Salvation has the requirement of having “right standing before Holy God.” The Bible calls this “Righteousness.” The person who attains, or is given Eternal Salvation must also attain or be given righteousness. Mark and I both describe this as a “gift.” I believe that Eternal Salvation is the natural result of being given right standing before Holy God, and that Eternal Damnation is the natural result of not having right standing.

One might say that Christians are saved from not having right standing. Mark indicates this when he answers my question about what we are saved from with “From God’s coming wrath.”

Both Mark and I quote Ephesians 2:8-9 with passion when we talk about Salvation being a gift.

Mark’s definition of Faith speaks of things like desiring to serve Christ, to being yoked to His directing your life, and obedience.

Mark tells me his presentation is based on Matthew 11. There however the Lord promises the one who takes on His yoke “rest” not work. The word rendered rest means a “cessation of motion” not to be “at ease” from worry but to be The Lord calls the hearer to be linked up with Him, because HE has done the work so the believer can merely “rest.”Such is the character of every answer given to any person who asks what they must do to be saved. When a person asks what work they can do, they are told to believe, not work.

Mark tells us that unless one has the same faith described in Heb 11:8-19 that a person is not saved. In actuality this passage describes Abraham’s willingness to obey God because he trusted God. Abraham had to have faith to do this, but it was not his faith that had inspired him to obey. His faith allowed him to do so. God inspired him to obey, it was his trust in God that let him actually follow through. His obedience demonstrates to us that he trusted God, but his obedience wasn't the trust. We read this same concept in James 2, where men are justified before other men by their works – but justified before God by faith alone.

The first verse of Hebrews 11 defines faith for us. It says that faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Faith is trust. So we read verse 8-19 knowing that it is because Abraham trusted God that he obeyed. His obedience isn’t his faith.

We also know this because Abram, which is the name that Abraham had before God changed it, was accounted as righteous before Holy God way back in Genesis 15. The Apostle Paul makes it plainly clear that faith and works are not the same using the Genesis 15 account. Paul tells us that that Justification before God not only is not “by works” but is “apart from” works. That the one who believes on God and DOES NOT WORK is saved.

He writes in Romans 4:1-4

¹ What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? ² For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. ³ For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” ⁴ Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. ⁵ But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, ⁶ just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
⁷ “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
⁸ Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

One must go back to the event of Abram being justified to see this plainly.

Gen 15:1 reads After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

Abram was afraid, and did not trust the Lord. He says to the Lord in Gen 15:2-3 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” ³ Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

The Lord God assured Abram with Gen 15:4-5 ⁴ And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” ⁵ Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

And then it happened.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

This is exactly the same as how Heb 11:1 defines faith. He trusted God’s promise. He did not express desire to serve. He did not come under some yoke of obedience. He trusted God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Paul tells us clearly in Romans 4 that this is how we are justified before God.

All the theology that leads a person to adopt LS theology can be argued over in various venues. There can be cries of misrepresentation and misunderstanding coming from those who support and deny LS theology. None of it matters to our discussion here today. The logical end of those theologies is the Lordship Salvation position which does not define saving faith the way the Bible does.

I may or may not understand the doctrines of sin, regeneration, election or repentance as they pertain to Lordship Salvation. I believe that I do, and I believe this is evidenced very clearly through my discussion with Mark. All of these things are moving targets when you try to challenge them because people hold their beliefs close to their hearts. But none of it matters. The Bible tells us that Salvation is by grace through faith and LS defines faith in a way that does not match what the Bible says.

Mark noted absolutely no disagreement with regard to what Salvation is, or what Grace is. I have used his word for word definitions of what saving faith is. CLEARLY I understand the position of Lordship Salvation as presented by Mark. I believe I have honored my promises, and I’m thankful that Mark participated in honor of his.

The brunt of the argument is that the Bible says that saving faith is assurance. Lordship Salvation uses incorrect grammar and says that saving faith is a faith that desires to serve Christ. Faith can’t desire something. To say that faith desires something is to commit the logical fallacy of reification.

Any time I have pressed the LS advocates on this I’ve been met with accusations of misrepresenting. To give the LS proponent the benefit of the doubt, one might consider that they would say that the life of one who has faith would be characterized by a desire to serve. However, the Bible makes no demand of this type of desire to serve to attain Salvation on the sinner (or the Believer to maintain salvation for that matter). I have presented Mark's own words, and quoted Scripture so I will leave the reader to compare what he says to the Bible’s definition of faith which is “assurance.”

In light of this one issue, I can not accept Lordship Salvation as truth. There are many other aspects of the theology that are worthy of discussion but based on this one point I can unequivocally state that the Bible is at odds with Lordship Salvation and I choose Scripture over man.

As it says “Let God be true and every man a liar.”

How about some help then?

Again and again the words "You're dealing with a teenager" came up this weekend past. Not that Mark is in his teenage years... but that he's still growing up in the Faith. We are each where we are on our own "walk towards Christ." I'm where I'm at, you're where your at, and Mark is where Mark is at. It is obvious from Scripture that Christians are created for Good Works. And while I hold that the only "evidence" we are told will show us as Christians is our love for each other, I DO believe that we will see fruit of the Spirit in the lives of those who walk by the Spirit. As Christians mature, that fruit becomes more and more visibly consistent. There is no getting around that. However, these are not terms for Salvation. One is no more or less saved if they do good works, if they are willing to do good works, or if they are disorderly.

As Paul tells us, we are Justified apart from works. We don't have to desire to do anything, we simply trust.

And that brings up the last point. When Mark was witnessing to me he did share that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. However, he did not share why this is "good news." Christ died for our sins "in accordance with the Scriptures." He died as a sacrifice that fullfilled the complete requirements for our Salvation. His sacrifice was accepted and so He rose to life again. When the Apostle Paul preached this message he shared why it was good news for everyone who receives it. Paul told us that if we receive this message that we are not only baptized into Christ's death, but also into His resurrection. That is our hope, that through dying in Christ we shall also live in Him for evermore.

What is saving Faith? It's trusting the Gospel of Christ. Period. No more. No less. No different at all. The Apostle Paul declares this Gospel and tells us the hope we have if we have received it.

1 Cor 15:1-11

¹But I make known to you, brethren, the glad tidings which I announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand,

²by which also ye are saved, (if ye hold fast the word which I announced to you as the glad tidings,) unless indeed ye have believed in vain.

³For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures;

⁴and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures;

⁵and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

⁶Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep.

⁷Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles;

⁸and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to *me* also.

⁹For *I* am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God.

¹⁰But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which [was] towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not *I*, but the grace of God which [was] with me.

¹¹Whether, therefore, I or they, thus we preach, and thus ye have believed.

Please compare the Apostle's presentation and my own descriptions with that of Mark's own words.

I used Acts 20:21 as the lead-off in my gospel presentation "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. I am convinced that salvation cannot take place without one coming to a place of realizing that their lives are completely in disobedience to the Word of their Creator, and their utter lostness that results from that. They realize it is time to stop in their tracks, which lead to certain judgment, and to embrace God's Word. (Repentance)

That one so convicted then comes to put their trust in the truth of God's Word that Christ paid in full for their sins. "It is Finished" were among His dying words on the cross. Indeed it was finished. There remained no more payment for sin. Christ bore The Father's wrath on all our sins. That individual, fully assured of these truths submits his life to Christ as his Master, Controler And Supreme One in authority. (Faith).

Hence my going to the center-piece of my gospel presentation - Matthew 11:28-30. There Christ summons those to come to Him and to take His yoke upon them ( a wooden beam, which came to symbolize servitude) and to learn from Him.