Tuesday, September 15, 2009

False Conversion

I'm interested in what you all think about False Conversion. If you will, would you answer the following questions?

It would be great if each answer were accompanied by a Biblical example.

1. Under what circumstances might a person think they are Eternally Saved, but actually still be bound for the Lake of Fire?

2. In such circumstances what would that person have to do to be saved?

This topic is surely an off-shoot of the last Lordship thread, but I hope we can leave that debate closed and focus on these two questions.

Hopefully there will be healthy discussion.

All are welcome to participate, just please try to discuss these questions not any previous debate. I'm really hoping some of those who were just reading the last few threads will post in this one.

75 comments:

Kevl said...

Example: Matthew 7:21 - 23

1. The person has not trusted that the Christ paid the full price for their sins but seeks to please God on their own terms.

2. The people in the example are already at judgement but those who are still trying to be "good enough" to please God must repent to see themselves as sinful, unclean, unacceptable to Holy God, and trust for their full provision in the Christ of the Gospel.

Anonymous said...
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Jan said...

That was the one I was thinking of. I can't think off the top of my head of any others. These people appeal to their works to show how they have done what Christ said and are legitimate but He says they are not.

I think Simon the Sorcerer might have ended up as one of these if Peter had not stepped in set the record straight.

I wonder what ever happened to him?

JanH

Kevl said...

I can think of a few situations where False Conversion can happen today. Such as when a person thinks that going to church makes them a Christian... and the like.

I'm hopeful the LS believers who read my blog will be helpful and supply some instances.

One of Bridget's biggest concerns is for those who are deceived into thinking they are saved, but are not.

Kev

Dawnessa said...

Example: James 2:14-26

It is only by faith AND good works that we are granted salvation, not by faith alone.

Have faith, and act on it - reap the rewards that He promises.

Jan said...

I have been thinking about this passage today and how closely it matches people like Benny Hinn and Rodney Howard Browne and their ilk. One of them, I believe it was Chuck Pierce, actually said in so many words that a person did not need to believe in Jesus to get the Holy Spirit. I forget what he said the person was to do to get this "holy spirit" but it is clear that whatever spirit such a person may get, it is certainly not the Holy Spirit who testifies to Jesus Christ! However, I am sure this spirit would be willing to perform casting out of demons and prophesying and the like.

JanH

Kevl said...

Hey Dawn, welcome.

All - I went to High School with Dawn I'm sure she's more than able to tell you what a heathen I was....

Please be gentle with her as she is BRAND SPANKING NEW to blogging.

Dawn, blog posts can be pretty up-front and even brutal sounding especially when dealing with the purity of the Gospel. Don't be surprised if people jump on your last.

I'm going to reply to it in my next post here.

Kevl said...

Dawn,

You brought up that salvation is by faith and works, and used James 2:14-26 as your reference.

This is the classic works based salvation reference.

However, James is writing about justification before men, not before God. We can know this for sure because of many passages but which is explicitly clear is Romans 4:1-8

Our Lord is perfectly clear on this subject as well. John 6:47 is pretty clear. John 6 is a long detailed explanation about the mechanics of Salvation. When the Lord was asked what must be done to do the works of God, He instructed those asking to believe. Vs 28-29

John 6 goes on to show how it is the provision of His sacrifice that secures Salvation for the believer. Unless you eat My flesh, and drink my Blood...

It's clear that works are what we are created in Christ "for" but that we are not saved through works.

Works are something that follow after Salvation. We see this explained in Eph 2:1-10 for example.

The right relationship between faith and works is that we are saved by Grace through Faith, and then as we are discipled we experience the "perfecting" of our faith which results in works that are visible to others.

We are justified before others when we act consistently with our faith. This is the point of James 2.

James himself is careful to make the distinction clear by saying that Abraham's faith was "perfected" by his works.

We know from Gen 3 that Abram (Abraham's name before God called him Abraham) was accounted as righteous because he believed (trusted, was assured of) what God promised him. This was 40 years before Isaac. Abram was saved that moment by Grace through Faith the same way we are today when we believe God.

Works are eternally important, but they are not in anyway the basis by which we are saved.

We bring nothing to God, we only receive or we would have reason to boast before others about what we have brought to Him.

Hope this helps,
Kev

Siarlys Jenkins said...

I have yet to meet, or read on line, a Bible-believing Christian who does not explain away some Biblical reference which fails to conform to their own view of what a Bible-believing Christian should believe. One example in my personal experience was the pastor who teaches that Christians should never drink alcohol, then said that surely our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would not have turned water into wine for the guests at a wedding feast. I have the same problem with explaining away James 2:14-26 as "about justification before men, not before God." That is not what James said. That is what someone who doesn't want to believe James is talking about justification before God would naturally suggest. Martin Luther had the same problem - he came close to arguing that James should be deleted from the Protestant version of the Bible, along with six books accepted by the Roman church which WERE deleted.

I believe that if two Bible verses conflict, we generally have to admit that no doctrinal explanation, which is necessarily a matter of human reasoning, can reconcile them. WE can't be the ones to chose which verse modifies the other verse, or vice versa. The only exception is, if Jesus said it, then it takes precedence over Paul, Peter, James, John... But we can only hope we understood Jesus correctly.

Since salvation is ultimately a matter of grace, not our own merit, I don't believe most of the criteria being discussed here are definitive. Does God have the power and authority to extend his grace to one who has not trusted that the Christ paid the full price of their sins? Could God of his mere grace and mercy forgive someone who seeks to please God on their own terms? Of course, whether we like it or not. God may even extend his grace to an atheist. If He does so, none of us will have anything to say about it.

Jan said...

Does God have the power and authority to extend his grace to one who has not trusted that the Christ paid the full price of their sins? Could God of his mere grace and mercy forgive someone who seeks to please God on their own terms? Of course, whether we like it or not. God may even extend his grace to an atheist. If He does so, none of us will have anything to say about it.

Hi Siarlys-

You ask some interesting questions here. I would postulate the following. Yes, God does have the power and authority to extend His grace to one who has not trusted that Jesus paid the full price for his sins. But He does not have the character to do so (if by "extend His grace" you mean consider that person apart from their sins, and apply the forgiveness of the cross to them without their having accepted it.) He would not use His power and authority that way. In fact, we are told that He has extended His grace to all men already. John 1 tells us the following: "That (Jesus) was the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world* (vs. 9) "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (vs. 14) Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men..." By this we know that God has extended His grace to all, even to those who have not trusted Christ.

The problem is not that God does not extend His grace to those who have not trusted Jesus' payment for their sins. The problem is that this grace is not received. His grace is not given at the expense of justice. The grace He has given is that His justice is satisfied against Another, who has borne His wrath on our behalf.

The answer I would give to the second question is similar. The issue is not so much whether He would extend His grace to someone who would seek to please God on his or her own terms. He already has extended that grace. The issue is whether the person would receive the grace that God has extended. Same thing for the atheist, etc.

JanH

*More literally, "That was the true Light which, coming into the world, gives light to every man."

Look up said...
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Kevl said...

Lookup,

I've deleted the link you supply. I want to discuss the subject not link people to books and websites.

Please, take one, a few, or even all of those examples and post them in the context of this discussion.

Please do so in the way that I've asked. State the problem, and the solution for them.

I'm discussing this subject in this way so we can get past the hype and emotion and see what's really happening in these situations.

I trust you understand, if you don't then please just ask.

Kev

Look up said...

Discussing, rather than preaching a subject falls into the pattern of the Hegelian Dialectic, which is just as deep a ditch as Lordship Salvation.

With regards to false conversions, the problem is ALWAYS sin (whether in the gross forms of immorality/lasciviousness/antinomianism or in the legal forms of morality/formality/hypocrisy), the only solution is Christ.

Kevl said...

Look up,

You said,

Discussing, rather than preaching a subject falls into the pattern of the Hegelian Dialectic, which is just as deep a ditch as Lordship Salvation.

Visiting and commenting at blogs is an odd choice for you then.

Also, the Holy Spirit doesn't think that discussion of doctrine is wrong.. Heb 6.

With regards to false conversions, the problem is ALWAYS sin (whether in the gross forms of immorality/lasciviousness/antinomianism or in the legal forms of morality/formality/hypocrisy), the only solution is Christ.

So the problem is sin, and what do they have to do?

Of course the solution is Christ.. He is always the solution... what does this person need to do then? This is the question that you have not answered. Stating a problem isn't helpful unless you can also tell the person how to fix it.

Kev

Kevl said...
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Kevl said...

Siarlys Jenkins,

I think your comment is worth discussing but not in this thread. So I've created an article for discussion of your topic.

Please continue your discussion here.

Kev

Look up said...

You wrote:
"Also, the Holy Spirit doesn't think that discussion of doctrine is wrong.. Heb 6."

Since you referenced it, show me precisely where in Hebrews 6, discussion is promoted. Enlarge that to anywhere in the Bible if you must.

The only thing ever directly promoted is the proclamation (didactive preaching/teaching) of these truths. Those who teach are to speak/write, those who learn are to read/hear.

Your whole premise of this thread is to discuss a truth rather than proclaim it. This puts thing entirely out of order.

"Of course the solution is Christ.. He is always the solution... what does this person need to do then?"

Do you really need me to tell you? Do you truly not understand this concept?

If you believe you are saved and are an emissary of Christ, your job is not to ask this question, but to proclaim its answer.

Kevl said...

Look up,

I'll ask you not to hijack this thread.

I'm going to answer this question but then if you don't have anything to post that relates to the questions asked in the article then please refrain from interrupting the conversation.

You asked,

Since you referenced it, show me precisely where in Hebrews 6, discussion is promoted. Enlarge that to anywhere in the Bible if you must.

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection....

Leaving the discussion of this, let us discuss that...

Would you agree that we are called to be like Christ?

Luke 2:46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.

Both listening and asking questions sure sounds like "discussion" to me...

Want to take back your accusation now?


Your whole premise of this thread is to discuss a truth rather than proclaim it. This puts thing entirely out of order.


Not according to the Lord, and not according to the Holy Spirit Who describes Jesus as perfect as the Father is.

Then you finished with something I'd rather not describe.

"Of course the solution is Christ.. He is always the solution... what does this person need to do then?"

Do you really need me to tell you? Do you truly not understand this concept?

If you believe you are saved and are an emissary of Christ, your job is not to ask this question, but to proclaim its answer.


You're not a teacher are you? No is the expected answer in case you were wondering.

yes I need you to tell me so that the doctrine you proclaim can be tested.

If you are so against discussion, you're behaving in a most inconsistent fashion.

If you believe that you are an emissary of Christ you are being awfully silent about how a person can go from being what you describe a False Convert is to being saved..

If you can speak to what the person must do when they are a false convert because of sin, then you have something to add to this thread.

If you can't do that then you do not. Understand?

Kev

Luke said...

"The only exception is, if Jesus said it, then it takes precedence over Paul, Peter, James, John... But we can only hope we understood Jesus correctly."


WRONG - If PAUL said it, it takes precedent over ANY thing else in scripture FOR TODAY, because PAUL received his revelation not by man, but DIRECTLY FROM JESUS CHRIST and his doctrine, which Paul calls "My Gospel" is the gospel for the gentiles and jews today.

Kevl said...
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Kevl said...

Hi Luke, (and all)

I've replied to this over in the linked thread. I see you posted a more detailed post there. I'd rather keep this discussion over there as it relates to that topic not this one.

Kev

bp said...

Example: Matthew 7:21 - 23
1. The person has not trusted that the Christ paid the full price for their sins but seeks to please God on their own terms.


Kevin,
Though, unfortunately, I believe you are so deeply entrenched in your ever-changing FG position that you will not look at this objectively, I’d like to offer your readers another interpretation of Matt 7:21.

Though I agree with Kev’s statement that the person hasn’t truly trusted in Christ but seeks to please God on his own terms, the passage makes it clear on what terms that is: By “calling” Him Lord, but being workers of lawlessness (against the law of God). Let’s go all the way back to Ch 5, when Jesus begins to speak to the crowds and His disciples, and lead up to His words in Ch 7:21-23. I think it will be clear that He’s speaking of a life-style of disobedience:

Ch 5:16 – Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father…

Ch 5:22 – But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment..

Ch 5:29 – If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Ch 5:32 – And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Ch 5:39 – But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Ch 5:44 – But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

Ch 6:3 – But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret.

Ch 6:14-15 – For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Ch 6:17 – But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others, but by your Father who is in secret.

Ch 6:24 – You cannot serve God and money.

Ch 6:33 – Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow…

Ch 7:1 – Judge not that you be not judged

Ch 7:12 – So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them.

Ch 7:19 – Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore you will recognize them by their fruits.

bp said...

THEN we have the words of Jesus from Ch 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

The next words from Him are, “Everyone then who hears these words of mine (all the words that He’s been speaking since the beginning of Ch 5), and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock….everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rains fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

There. Now I’ll let your readers decide if Jesus' point is that those people He’s talking about who will say “Lord, Lord” on judgment day are people who are doing good works and trusting in their works to save them, OR if they are people “calling” Him Lord, but not doing the works that He’s been describing from Ch 5 on, but rather living in disobedience. Here’s a couple hints though:

“..but the one who does the will of my Father.” (7:21)

“..depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (7:23)

Bridget

Look up said...

"...yes I need you to tell me so that the doctrine you proclaim can be tested."

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Luke said...

BP, you have no final authority. You have picked the NKJV or NIV or whatever because it supports your belief.

You are saying "lawlessness" but the Bible says "WORKERS of Iniquity". Your version is wrong.

Christians are lawless - For ye are not under the law, but under grace - shall we sin because we are not under the law? God forbid!

There is no LAW over a Christian.

The people in Matthew 7 were WORKERS - even their own righteousnesses were as filthy rags - of INIQUITY.

Look up said...

Kevin

You wrote:

"If you are so against discussion, you're behaving in a most inconsistent fashion."

No discussion here, I am simply preaching. Discussion takes place with the hope of influencing another towards your own opinion. That is not my objective, nor is it even within my power. I could care less whether or not you are influenced towards my opinion (in fact it is probably better that you are not), all I care is that there is an opportunity to proclaim the riches of Christ. Yes, even, nay especially, to you! The ditch you are in is as deep and as wide as LS.

When you have met Christ, you will proclaim from the rooftops with Job

"Behold, I am vile."

As it sits now, you must win your argument or discussion or whatever you would like to call it with the LS advocates from the opposing ditch. If you are a child of God, you are called to 'preach the word', not to discuss it by dialectic as though your opinion on it even mattered. In fact, in most cases, it will be at the expense of your opinion.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Look up said...

There are no biblical examples where a false convert was subsequently saved.

Kevl said...

Luke,

While I agree with your conclusion - for the other reasons you note- Bridget is properly rendering the word as "lawlessness"

Here's from Strong's, Thayer is similar.

ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.


However you are absolutely correct to say that the Christian is not under Law.

Neither Mosaic Law of that dispensation nor Kingdom Law of the coming dispensation.

Of Bridget's quoting 7:21 "ot every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens."

I'm left to ask "What is the will of the Father?"

We see in John 6:22-59 that the will of the Father is to save people who have eaten of Christ's flesh and drank of His blood.

Kind of neat how there's nothing about "works" there.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget,

I understand your hostility. However, I explicitly asked for the previous discussion not to be taken up here.

You've made a statement now, so what can a person who's "working lawlessness" do to be saved?

Kev

Kevl said...

Look Up,

I surely appreciate your enthusiasm, and I agree that the only solution is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

However, you've completely dodged the fact that the Lord Himself engaged in "discussion" while you take opportunity to "preach" at me about discussion.

Now you start saying that I have to win an argument...

You remind me of someone who has a singular ability to get under my skin by means of like communication.

If there be an "opinion" that I hold that doesn't measure up to Scripture then my "opinion" will surely be surrendered.

So far your "preaching" here is very short on substance but pretty long "opinion." At least in MY opinion.

Kev

Luke said...

Kevl, I know this isn't the right place, but are you aware that "setting captives free" is entirely Lordship Salvation focused. It took me a long time to be freed from that particular sin, and I attribute it to God's grace, and the teachings of grace and a better understanding of dispensationalism and freedom from the law. Just letting you know. You can delete this comment :)

Kevl said...

Hey Luke,

Yes I know they are Covenant Theology, and they surely take that bent on a number of Scripture passages they use in their teaching.

I used the course myself and found it VERY helpful. I wouldn't approach it the same way as they do, but they did help me.

If there was a better course I could link people to I would.

It's definitely an eye-opener to those who are just plain not aware of what a problem that particular brand of sin is even in the body of believers.

There's only one type of freedom, that which is given by the Lord. We can't "strive" for freedom, and we can't "earn" freedom.. we can't DECIDE to be free.. we can only be freed.

But, the first step is always recognizing where you are and seeing that should lead one to call on the One who can save us.

If you know of a better option for me to link to I'll check it out.

Thanks,
Kev

Look up said...

"...you've completely dodged the fact that the Lord Himself engaged in "discussion" while you take opportunity to "preach" at me about discussion."

You had asked me to so I did, if you want an answer, here it is.

"Would you agree that we are called to be like Christ?"

The Lord Himself fasted 40 days in the wilderness, the Lord Himself was physically crucified, the Lord Himself raised the dead, the Lord Himself had power on earth to forgive sins.

When you can be like Him and have done those things your discussion will be meaningful, until then cut the discussion and...."Preach the word"...

Kevl said...

Thanks for your visit Look up. Please come back when you feel like participating in a discussion.

Kev

Luke said...

There is a better course here

www.in-purity.org

It is run by a fundamental free grace baptist. I found that the courses in general didn't help me too much, because I was focusing too much on not doing something, and so sin took occasion by the law and slew me.

Only after I found I was free from the law have I had any lasting victory.

But that in-purity site is much more helpful in it's devotions.

bp said...

Kev,
My discussion here is completely under your topic of “false conversions”. You used the example of the people Jesus is talking about in Matt 7 to try to show that these “false converts” were people who were legalists, people trying to be saved by their good deeds, but I want to show your readers that Scripture is clear that these false converts were people who were “calling” Him Lord, even going to church, and taking part in it’s activities, (prophesying, casting out demons, etc) but were living lives of lawlessness (disobedience to His law).

All of Jesus’ words from Ch 5 up through Ch 7 make it clear that this is the point He’s making.
Now let it be clear that nowhere did I say that Christians are “under the Law”. Rather, Jesus says that everyone who hears these words of His, (the words that He’s been speaking since the beginning of Ch 5, many of which I posted) and does (obeys) them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock….And everyone who hears these words of His and does not do (disobeys) them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Homoioō
1) to be made like
2) to liken, compare
a) illustrate by comparisons

To “be like” means there’s a comparison going on. A comparison between one who obeys Jesus’ words (commands) that He’s just given in Ch 5-7, to one who built his house on the rock (has faith in Jesus). And another comparison between one who disobeys Jesus’ words (commands) He’s just given in Ch 5-7, to one who built his house on the sand (no real faith in Jesus). In other words, it’s not that obedience to His words is what is “required” (as if under the law) to be justified before God, but one who is obedient to His words “looks like” or can be likened or compared to one who has built his house on the rock (has faith in Christ). Obedience/works are the evidence of a saving faith.

Kevin, after Jesus just spent almost the whole of 3 chapters worth of dialogue giving commandment after commandment in the Sermon on the Mount, He says in Ch 7, vs 21 that not everyone who says to Him, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom, but the one who does “the will of my Father”. For someone who has consistently accused me of proof-texting, I find it amazing that you just sort of pull this passage out of John 6 and say that this is what Jesus is talking about when He says that only those who “do the will of the Father” will see the kingdom – He was talking about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Talk about proof-texting! Not that this isn’t also the will of the Father, but I think your readers will find it clear what Jesus meant if they just read ahead 3 verses to where He says “Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them.” A clear indication that He is speaking of the words He’s just spoken in Ch 5-7.

bp said...

You've made a statement now, so what can a person who's "working lawlessness" do to be saved?

I'll answer your question by quoting the Apostle Paul in Acts 26:20, “(I) declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.” (and I would just add that it is only through Jesus that one can “turn to God” – John 14:6).

Kevl said...

So Bridget, after your post about Matthew you offer this.

I'll answer your question by quoting the Apostle Paul in Acts 26:20, “(I) declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

So the solution for someone who is a false convert is to "repent, turn to God, and do good works befitting repentance."?

This is how someone goes from being a false convert to becoming a true convert?

Can you please explicitly confirm this is what you mean.

(and I would just add that it is only through Jesus that one can “turn to God” – John 14:6).

this isn't about "turning" to God it is about actually getting to Him...... I don't even know what to say to this other than I'm surprisingly shocked at the force you use on Scripture to get it to mean what you want it to.

Kev

Luke said...

But why are you arguing about Matt 5-7? The context is the Kingdom, not eternal life. The audience is Jews, not the whole world. The recipients of the Kingdom are Jews, not gentiles.

Kevl said...

Thanks Luke - very concise... I was going to respond but my response would have been longer than her post...

Kev

bp said...

So the solution for someone who is a false convert is to "repent, turn to God, and do good works befitting repentance."?

This is how someone goes from being a false convert to becoming a true convert?

Can you please explicitly confirm this is what you mean.


I explicitly confirm this is what I mean. The solution to any sinner being saved (not just false converts) is to repent of sin and turn to God (through faith in Jesus Christ), after which they will do Holy Spirit driven works befitting repentance. And I’m sure you will once again (sigh) think I’m mixing discipleship with what one must do to be justified (saved), but I hope and pray your readers can see otherwise.

this isn't about "turning" to God it is about actually getting to Him...... I don't even know what to say to this other than I'm surprisingly shocked at the force you use on Scripture to get it to mean what you want it to.

Well, unfortunately Kev, I'm not surprisingly shocked anymore at the force you use on Scripture to get it to mean what you want it to (specifically here, that repentance and faith do not mean turning from sin to God), so I’ll let your readers decide if Scripture doesn’t teach, from Geneis to Revelation, that from birth all sinners naturally turn away from God to sin (idols) - Ps 14:2, and need to “turn from sin to God (through faith in Christ)”. But here’s just a few NT examples.

In Acts 3:19, Paul tells the crowd to “repent, therefore and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out (KJV says, “repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..)”

Repent (metanoeō)
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

Acts 26:18, Paul reciting Jesus’ words to him on the Damascus road, “..sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

Matt 4:17 – From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand….And he said to them, ‘Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

The whole Sermon on the Mount talks of turning from sin and living in obedience to Christ for eternal life (“Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, ‘Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven”)

Matt 19:23 – The rich young man who wouldn’t turn from his idol (money) to follow Christ. (“Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven…When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, ‘Who then can be saved?

John 3:19-21 – “Everyone who does wicked things, hates the light and does not come to the light lest His deeds should be exposed…but the one who does what is true, comes to the light” (turns from sin to Christ).

Eph 2 – formerly, “living in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and mind”, now, following Christ and doing good works.

1 Thes 1:9, “how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.”

bp said...

Kev, I find it curious that you told Dawn:

“The right relationship between faith and works is that we are saved by Grace through Faith, and then as we are discipled we experience the "perfecting" of our faith which results in works that are visible to others.

I thought you said in the last thread that this doesn’t necessarily happen? (I trust that since I'm responding to what you wrote in this thread, that my question is appropriate for this thread).

Kevl said...

Bridget,

You stated "explicitly" that how someone goes from being a false convert to a true convert is to

repent, turn to God and do good works.

You preach a works based Salvation.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget,

I wrote such in that other thread, and at least 500 times in your witness in the past.

Every believer is discipled by the Spirit. Heb 12 among many other passages makes this abundantly clear.

Neither I nor Scripture ever state that the results or quality of response to this discipleship is indicative or determinative of our Eternal Salvation.

Kev

bp said...

My apologies to you and to your readers, Kev. I am so used to you broad-stroking the process of salvation by asking how one can “be saved” (**explained below) that I was thinking this as I answered. Let me explain my position very clearly and allow your readers to be good Bereans, and see it doesn’t align with Scripture.

How can someone go from being a false convert to a true convert?

By repentance and faith in Jesus Christ (turning from sin to God). Once a person does this, they are justified before God and will go on to “do works befitting repentance” (works that are “suitable” or “proper” for someone who has repented). It’s very similar to what Jesus said in Matt 7 about how those who hear his words and obey them are likened to someone who has built his house on the rock (trusted in Jesus). Look at the comparison:

Those who have repented will do good works (works befitting repentance).

Those who have faith in Jesus (build their house on the rock) will hear His words and obey them.

Again, there is a continuous theme (which I shared just a fraction of) throughout the Old and New Testaments that show that man (from birth) turns away from God to serve and worship idols (sin) and must turn from his idols (sin) to God. Once someone does this (we can only turn to God "through Christ"), they are justified before God by grace alone through that faith alone. They are a new convert. Then (because they are still living in the flesh), they will go on to a Holy Spirit guided and enabled battle to put to death the deeds of the flesh and walk in obedience to Christ.

I’d encourage any reading this thread to start in the OT and see the constant recurring theme of “turn from your idols (sin) to the living God”. (The first and second commandments are kind of a give-away).

***Since I thought kev asked “how a false convert becomes saved, I answered, “repent (turn from sin) to God (through faith in Jesus), and do works befitting repentance.” Why? Because we are “saved” by process of justification, sanctification, and glorification (Which Paul clearly understood).

bp said...

I wrote such in that other thread, and at least 500 times in your witness in the past.

Every believer is discipled by the Spirit. Heb 12 among many other passages makes this abundantly clear.

Neither I nor Scripture ever state that the results or quality of response to this discipleship is indicative or determinative of our Eternal Salvation.


Yeah, we’ve been through this Kev. I just hope and pray your readers can see the holes in your theology. That whether or not our “eternal salvation” (future-tense glorification) is indicative of, or determined by our present-tense sanctification, it still aint gonna happen without it, which makes it pretty clear you can’t be future-tense saved without obedience to Christ/works.

bp said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Kevl said...

Bridget,

This is classic, and what I was talking about when I warned Greg about your style of debate.


***Since I thought kev asked “how a false convert becomes saved, I answered, “repent (turn from sin) to God (through faith in Jesus), and do works befitting repentance.” Why? Because we are “saved” by process of justification, sanctification, and glorification (Which Paul clearly understood


Exactly as Greg clearly demonstrated to you from Scripture, when one is Justified they are thus Glorified.

Glorification is determined by Justification, not Sanctification. Justification is determined by grace through faith, not by grace through sanctification.

Try to make it look like you are saying something else all you like. You are preaching a works based salvation.

Work or go to Hell, that's your message to false converts and the world. Dress it up in fancy language, cryptic terminology, assumption and presumption... the message doesn't change.

You preach Salvation by control through obedience.

Not Salvation by grace through faith.

In your view there is no hope for sinners, for there is no Savior for them to call on. They must only wait to find out if they are selected or not. The only way they can know they have been selected is if they become slaves to the will of God.

If they are not slaves then they can never ever be sure that they are saved.

There is no no call, no trust and so no faith.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget I deleted your last. This is not a recruiting center.

Kev

melissa said...

Weird, I just got disconnected and my puters not working..had to switch to the laptop and its harder to type :(

Ok kev, where did I say that glorification "is determined" by sanctification? I said that glorification doesn't happen without sanctification. Am I wrong?

bp said...

Oops, sorry. Melissa is my daughter. I'm signing her out and me in. lol

bp said...

In your view there is no hope for sinners, for there is no Savior for them to call on.

There's your problem right there kev. All your hope is in the sinner. In the sinner calling on Christ. My hope is in the Savior going after His sheep.

Kevl said...

Bridget (M),

Ok kev, where did I say that glorification "is determined" by sanctification? I said that glorification doesn't happen without sanctification. Am I wrong?

Is the best use of our time discussing what you said or didn't say?

Your arguments are very fluid. At one point you say that glorification doesn't happen without sanctification. Then you say that you can't know you're going to be glorified unless you can see you're successfully being sanctified...

your definition(s) of what it means to be being sanctified change as often as you feel trapped.

My words were as complete as I could make them. They box me into a position that I can not just claim meant something else later... I encourage you to do the same.

I would rather you be wrong but seeking truth than to be as fluid as you are. Those who are wrong and seeking truth are open to correction. You spend most of your posts in evasion...

Evasion is what the post I quoted above is all about. Distract and evade.. then return with the same argument later...

Kev

bp said...

I knew you wouldn't answer the question kev. I've asked it before. Maybe the reason you feel "boxed in" is because you know that if you answer the question correctly (no. glorification cannot happen without sanctification), the holes in your theology will be too obvious

Kevl said...

Bridget,

I think there may be value in my responding to this.

(quoting me)In your view there is no hope for sinners, for there is no Savior for them to call on.

There's your problem right there kev. All your hope is in the sinner. In the sinner calling on Christ. My hope is in the Savior going after His sheep.


The Saviour already did come after His Sheep. He came to the Cross and finished it there. Now the Spirit draws us to Him using convincing and conviction.

When we are convicted of our sin, and convinced that He has fully secured our safety, we call on Him and He is faithful to save (Justification & Glorification) all who call on Him.

As we have discussed at length, the Spirit then disciples all who are Justified. We respond how we respond and are used as much as we respond. At glorification what we did in Him will be rewarded. What we did on our own, and what we didn't do in Him will burn up. But no matter what we did or didn't do during our lives, if we have been justified we will be glorified.

We will only be used as much as we are sanctified, and we will only be rewarded for as much as we are used. If we have nothing to show for the work of the Spirit in us then we will be saved but as though by fire.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget, is English your second language?


I knew you wouldn't answer the question kev. I've asked it before. Maybe the reason you feel "boxed in" is because you know that if you answer the question correctly (no. glorification cannot happen without sanctification), the holes in your theology will be too obvious


I don't "feel" boxed in, I have WILLINGLY and INTENTIONALLY boxed myself in with HONESTY. I have been EXPLICIT in my statements.

I encourage you to do the same... even when you CLAIM to be explicit (just a few posts up) you have to change what you really meant as soon as someone challenges you on it. Why is that?

I have answered your foolish question over and over again.

All believers will be discipled, not all believers will be willing in the process, and not all will be successful.

Sanctification is something that the Spirit does in believers. Sanctification is not a requirement for Salvation (justification or glorification.)

BTW it is absolutely absurd that you make communication so complicated. It is apparent to me that you do so to leave your self wiggle room later on.


Kev

bp said...

The Saviour already did come after His Sheep.

One little (massive) problem with that Kev.

"The sheep hear his voice, (the Shepherd)and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." - John 10:3-4

Those he calls by name he leads out, and they follow him.

Kevl said...

Bridget, you seem to have the same issue that Mark does. You confuse disagreement with misunderstanding.

I understand what you're saying. I don't agree with you. No matter how many times you ask me I'm not going to give the answer that matches your view. I'm not dodging the question.. I've answered it MANY times.

Check out this article over at Fred's blog. Communication 101 How often do you flunk?.

Kev

bp said...

I clarified my position and explained very clearly why (because I was thinking in terms of how a false convert can "be saved"). Am I not allowed this grace?

I know that my communication seems complicated to you. But that may be because you are so "boxed in" to your theology that you cannot look at Scripture any other way but through your FG lense. Which explains why you refuse to answer my question.

bp said...

No matter how many times you ask me I'm not going to give the answer that matches your view.

Then don't give me the answer that matches my view. Just give me the answer that you believe to be true.

I'm not dodging the question.. I've answered it MANY times.

No you have not. I'll ask it again:

Can a person be future-tense glorified (eternally saved) without sanctification?

Kevl said...

Hi Bridget,

Now we'll switch from the topic of Sanctification to the topic of pre-faith regeneration in order to support your view of Sanctification.

It's like I've seen this all before....

The Saviour already did come after His Sheep.

One little (massive) problem with that Kev.

"The sheep hear his voice, (the Shepherd)and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." - John 10:3-4

Those he calls by name he leads out, and they follow him.


Cool stuff eh?

Unfortunately for your view... when the "sheep" are owned by another owner are they "His sheep"? No.

They are the "other's" sheep.

I know it's going to sound crazy to you... but check out what the Lord said to Peter about his care of the Lambs and the Sheep.

A lamb is just a baby sheep.

The Lord calls His sheep and they know His voice and they follow.

After a lamb matures it becomes a sheep.

Oh I'm sure this is all just crazy talk, and I'm "explaining away" some more Scripture... but hey it sure fits everything that Scripture says and I don't need to insert ideas like pre-faith regeneration, and required works for Salvation do I?

What's more, when I say that Salvation is by grace through faith I can really mean it!

Salvation is by unmerited favour on those who don't deserve it and who have earned it, through their TRUST in God.

I don't have to redefine, or refine, or add on, or explain, or show what "true" grace and "true" faith is... I just have to let the Bible speak all by it self.

What's even better. I don't have to keep switching subjects.

Bridget, I'm far less skilled than you are. I'm not nearly clever enough to defend a theology.

I encourage you to end the war. Just give up. Let the Scriptures speak and you be silent.

God really can take care of all His people, lambs and sheep. He really will disciple us, and prune us.. and as we submit and work in His strength He will use us. Finally when we stand before Him, everything He used us for He will also reward us for.

We just have to start by trusting Him alone. There is no other way.

Kev

bp said...

You're right. It does sound crazy. I'll deal with that issue, but right now I don't want to switch topics. I just want you to answer the question Kev. As I said in the post that you deleted, I can't be back on-line after this till Monday. Until then I'll be silent, as I await your answer.

Bridget

Kevl said...

Bridget,
I'm not dodging the question.. I've answered it MANY times.

No you have not. I'll ask it again:

Can a person be future-tense glorified (eternally saved) without sanctification?


here

here

here

fairly complete response to Dawn about faith & works here that answers your question in this thread.

a direct answer to this exact question in the other thread Of course you didn't like my answer and went off on me and decided you know what is in my book, and how people will react and fair in eternity after reading it... here

OK I could keep going.. I could find myself answering this question in various forms on the SOBE forums.. in many previous threads here and even at Lou's blog - all in your witness.

It is not that I haven't answered your question it is that I am determined to be constrained by Scripture not your theology that bothers you.

Kev

Jan said...

I would like to point out something for those who may be new to this blog or this kind of discussion.

Bridget has made the following comment:

That whether or not our “eternal salvation” (future-tense glorification) is indicative of, or determined by our present-tense sanctification, it still aint gonna happen without it, which makes it pretty clear you can’t be future-tense saved without obedience to Christ/works.

I would like to draw your attention to the last part in particular:

...you can’t be future-tense saved without obedience to Christ/works.

There is no way to read this without concluding that works are an ingredient of and not a result of salvation. No one who regards works solely as a result of/evidence of/indication of salvation would ever use this terminology to explain the relationship between salvation and works and expect NOT TO BE MISUNDERSTOOD. They would expect that if they framed it that way their hearer would understand that works are an ingredient and therefore a CAUSE of salvation. Either Bridget is intentionally forcing you to “misunderstand” her by refusing to own her inability to speak clearly or she believes that works are an INGREDIENT of salvation, the position she is trying (unsuccessfully) to defend as orthodox. The more she claims misunderstanding, the more she feels she can keep talking (and talking and talking.....) with the hope that with “correct understanding” will come agreement.

She could be allowed the position that works will be a result of salvation- that they will be present BECAUSE one is saved if that was what she wanted to affirm, but that is not the view she is defending. She is defending that a person must have works in order TO BE "future-tense saved". If ever she does say that works are a result of justification, it is only the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Where she could simply say that if a person is saved, they will demonstrate that in the way they live, she instead persists in insisting we agree (and thereby prove we understand) that works must be present in order for a person to be saved. And so we have this lengthy, convoluted, repetitive discourse about the necessity of works for future salvation, with all its accompanying accouterments (regeneration preceding salvation, justification vs. sanctification vs. glorification, salvation is a process, etc.)

And as for those questions she kept requesting someone answer for her, they have been answered many times here. This is by no means a new conversation.

JanH

[If anyone wants to know, my own position (that I have stated to Bridget one of the previous times this conversation happened) is that salvation is complete and not a process. The outworking of that completed salvation is a process.]

Lou Martuneac said...

Jan:

Well said, indeed.


Lou

Kevl said...

Bridget,

I've received a number of complaints about your behavior here. People have independently emailed me with concerns.

I am not inclinded to "ban" many people from posting at my blog.

Here is what I will ask of you. That you post a public apology for your attacks on my character which will include acknowledgement that I had answered your question many times. I have demonstrated this fact, and it has been pointed out by Jan here in this thread. Additionally, people have emailed me noting that you have obviously ignored posts directed at you (and otherwise) and continued to post without regard to their content.

I have gone to great lengths to allow the LS Proponents a clear voice here. In doing so I have had to endure much inconvenience of my time and attention.

You no longer have freedom to call down my character at this blog.

Before you post again please post this apology. Until such time as you do, consider yourself banned from participating in conversations at this blog.

It pains me institute such an action and I have resisted it. However it is done now.

Note to all: This doesn't mean I expect my character to go unchallenged. It does mean that unfounded inflammatory insults will not be tolerated. Even from someone I care for greatly.

Kev

David Wyatt said...

Bro. Kev,

You have done an exceptional job of seeking to understand the LS mindset & belief. You have caused them to come right out and admit to a works salvation belief. I am so thankful that my salvation is not dependent on my filthy rags righteousness. Otherwise I'd never ever be saved. God Bless you.

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

I join David in thanking you for drawing admission to the works based teaching of LS from Mark and Bridget.

Of course, they will never cease their mantra like, shrill cries of "misrepresentation" of what they stated for the record. Oh well.


Lou

Jan said...

I agree Kev! Thanks!

Of course, they will never cease their mantra like, shrill cries of "misrepresentation" of what they stated for the record.

On that note, one of the things they would cry misrepresentation over is that we give the impression that they say it is man who does the works in question. They will rightly insist that it is God who works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Therefore the works are done by God and not man.

However, this is irrelevant to the point at hand. The issue is not who is the one doing the working. It is whether the works are an ingredient of salvation, regardless of who is doing them.

JanH

bp said...

Kevin,
I imagine you will delete this post, so it may be for your eyes only. I am disturbed by how consistently characteristic it has been of you to offer yourself forward as a lowly victim of assult (on your character) at your blog, demand apology, and then ban people so that they cannot continue to reveal the gaping holes in your man made theology.

Anyone who casually looks over the threads here can see that you do to me, and others, everything that you are accusing me of and way, way, way more. You consistently accuse me, and others, of evasion, dodging, switching topics, being crafty, being deceptive, having ulterior motives, and like behaviors. You consistently judge and determine the motives of my heart. And then, when someone so much as hints that you are dodging a question, you lay yourself out on the sacrificial alter before all of your friends as a poor victim of unfounded inflammatory insults, so that all of your friends can come band together and sooth you as you conveniently ban people from your blog.

As for my question, you have never answered it. You have done a very nice job of tap dancing around it, but you have never answered it. Very good timing to ban me from your blog unless I make an apology for “assaulting your character” and admit you answered the question. I am not surprised by the event at all and quite expected it.

Incidentally, I scrolled through our conversation and discovered something. My “clarification” post had to be made because you asked me a question and then when I answered it, you switched the question around and stated my position differently. I’ll let you take a look, but my guess is that you will put your head in the sand on this too. Here is your original question:

How does one go from being a false convert to being saved?

When I answered it according to Paul’s words in Acts (repent and turn to God, and do works befitting repentance), you then tried to confirm my position by stating a totally different question:

This is how someone goes from being a false convert to becoming a true convert?

So it wasn’t me that pulled the ol switcharoo, it was you Kev. And maybe you didn’t even realize it. But those are two different questions with two different answers.

-becoming a true convert includes justification

-becoming saved includes justification, sanctification and glorification.

I will be pleased to continue dialogue at your blog, but I will not be browbeat into making an apology for “inflammatory insults” on your character, and thereby enabling your victimization drama. And I will not acknowledge that you answered a question that you did not answer.

As much as I care about you, If this post is deleted, I will be permanently deleted from your blog.

Bridget

Kevl said...

Bridget,

As much as I care about you, If this post is deleted, I will be permanently deleted from your blog.

Sadly. You are no longer welcome here.

If at some point in the future you want to repent I will hear and accept your apology.

Until such time any post you make here will be deleted. Regardless of what it contains.

Kev

bp said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Kevl said...

All,

I'm going to leave Bridget's post up because I believe it is the perfect "final nail in the coffin."

She claims that I pulled the ol switcheroo... by "changing" the subject from whatever she claims to have thought we were talking about to that of how a false convert becomes a true convert.

Did she read the thread? Did she read the question I asked her?

The very nastiness of the behavior of many LS proponents invalidates their position.

How can one claim that one must be yoked to the Christ, or submissive to His Lordship and learn from Him.. you know all the claims they make and then behave the way they do in forums and on blogs?

It's a self refuting theology.

I've got a completely different discussion planned for this week. I hope to post some thoughts from Ruth later today.

Kev

Jan said...

Here is your original question:

How does one go from being a false convert to being saved?

When I answered it according to Paul’s words in Acts (repent and turn to God, and do works befitting repentance), you then tried to confirm my position by stating a totally different question:

This is how someone goes from being a false convert to becoming a true convert?

So it wasn’t me that pulled the ol switcharoo, it was you Kev. And maybe you didn’t even realize it. But those are two different questions with two different answers.

-becoming a true convert includes justification

-becoming saved includes justification, sanctification and glorification.


See what I mean?

Now we can be a true convert and have justification yet not be saved because we can have justification and conversion without salvation. Is it any wonder we can't get anywhere here?

We are still in the same place. One can be converted and justified without works and therefore without being saved. But one is not saved without works. Works are an INGREDIENT in salvation.

There is no "switcheroo". We see these questions as the same question phrased differently. Bridget sees a "switcheroo" where no such thing occurred because she sees these questions as "totally different."

This is the result of requiring works to be an ingredient of salvation rather than a result of salvation. The simplicity that is in Christ Jesus suddenly becomes very complex.

Kev,

I support your decision regarding Bridget. Not because I don't like her (I do, and I wish we could see eye to eye) but because these irreconcilable differences always give everyone a headache.

I suppose I could say more about it but there isn't really any point so I'll just stop here.

JanH

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

I also support your decision to ban Bridgett for the obvious and repeated examples she gave to deserve it. You put up with her antics much longer than I did when she was doing the same things at my blog.

Bad enough she is a propagator of Lordship's assault on the Gospel of grace, but her insults and shenanigans were just too much.


Lou