Friday, August 28, 2009

Lordship Salvation Presentation with Q&A


EDIT 1: This is not a debate. This is a witnessing encounter with Q&A. Please do not engage Mark as he witnesses to me. I don't want him to have to compete, just be clear. I'll let everyone know when the conversation is over and debate can - if wanted by the masses can begin.

EDIT 2: MARK I suggest that we go point by point based on my replies to your answers. PLEASE acknowledge any that I understand and then move one by one through the ones that I don't understand. This will make it easier for us to discuss.
EDIT 3: The first results are in. Please read Mark's Lordship Salvation Presentation to me at the bottom of this article and the interpretation of it I have built using the definitions he has supplied in the thread below.

Edit 4: The first revision of my interpretation of the Lordship Salvation Presentation is added to the bottom of this pot.

Edit 5: Mark has supplied what he believes is a Lordship Salvation Presentation "without words that need definition." I still found some terminology in his post but I will use the previously established definitions which have been refined by conversation with Mark to interpret.  Please find a copy of what Mark posted at the bottom of this article. The discussion below this post has long since left it's intended direction and has gotten so long that any new reader would have a real challenge with getting up to speed. I think this hurts the potential for new comments so I'm going to create a specific discussion here.I'm asking a Lordship Salvation (LS) believer to present the Gospel to me clearly, as though I am an unsaved person they are witnessing to.I am going to ask questions of that person.


My goals are these:
1. get the LS Advocates to be on record with what they say;
2. confirm if I do properly understand LS Theology or not;
3. demonstrate a LS Gospel presentation for my readers; and
4. create a resource which I can refer back to in future discussions.
I promise to:
1. to honestly consider the presentation at face value;
2. to vigorously try to understand each point of the presentation;
3. to reply to statements with what I believe the person has written before I ask questions;
4. to acknowledge if this presentation leads me to Eternal Salvation;
5. to acknowledge if this presentation leads me to agree with LS; and
6. to keep posts as short and clear as possible.

The presenter(s) promise to:
1. present the Gospel clearly;
2. answer questions clearly;
3. define and explain statements using Scripture NOT any systematic theology;
4. not compare LS to any other theology (this is a presentation not a debate);
5. either acknowledge my understanding or clearly explain my misunderstanding of LS theology when I have expressed what I believe the presenter has written; and
6. keep posts as short and clear as possible.

All else who choose to be involved promise to:
1. allow the presenter to make their presentation without interference; and
2. to only respond to direct questions from either myself or the presenters. (space for conversation will be given after the presentation)

Here is Mark's Presentation as posted:

Matthew 11:28-30 serves as my personal model for a salvation presentation.

To begin with I put before them that they are sinners before their Holy Creator, Who will be their Judge someday if they do not repent and believe the Gospel.

I present before them 1 Cor. 15:1-4 - That Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and that He rose again.

I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

I then introduce them to the center-piece of my presentation - Matthew 11:28-30. I summon them to come to Christ (in which coming I regard as the point of their justification); to take His yoke upon them and learn from Him ( representing repentance from sin, a transfer of allegiance from self seeking to Christ seeking - discipleship, progressive sanctification are seen here). I then lead them to an understanding that one who comes to Christ is a new creation and now it is time to go on learning from, and living for, Him.

I then make sure that water baptism is to be sought so that the world can witness the fact that their old self is dead, and it is now time to walk in newness of life, following Christ as Lord and Master.

Based on the definitions and explanations Mark supplied in the thread here is what I currently believe he means. This is the first round and Mark can surely give further explanation on any points.

At several points through this conversation I've been accused of playing games. I have not debated, or manipulated but have only sought clarity. I'll leave it to the reader to discern if this is game playing or not.

I have tried to put Mark's words into a presentation to a lost person in order to keep everything in the required context.

You are a person who does things like the world does as the devil leads you in view of your Creator who follows His moral code and law perfectly. He will judge you someday IF you do not change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works and that you believe the Gospel. (NOTE: I, Kevin, assume the Gospel is the next part).

The Son of God died for your sins, He was buried, rose to life again.
You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, by desiring to follow after only Christ.
This is the most important part.
I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them righteous. This calling on Him includes the following;
To willingly be bridaled as with a yoke (more than leashed, a bridal is not flexible) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alliegeed to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)
You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures.
You must seek to obey the Scriptures and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ.
At this point if the person is saved from God's future judgement.

Q - Is this a completely accurate Lordship Salvation presentation to a lost person?

A - there was much, but not total, agreement that I had properly interpreted what Mark had written.

Here is my first revision of my understanding of what Mark presents as a saving message in accordance with Lordship Salvation.


You are a person who does things like the world does as the devil leads you in view of your Creator who is perfect. He will judge you someday IF He hasn't chosen in Eternity past to change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works so that you will believe the Gospel. (NOTE: I, Kevin, assume the Gospel is the next part)
The Son of God died for your sins, He was buried, rose to life again.
You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, through exhibiting a desire to follow after Christ alone. (NOTE: if your definition of true saving faith is desiring to follow Christ, and following Him is the fruit of that then I believe this is a perfectly accurate interpretation. If you can supply a definition of “faith” that is more accurate and appropriate for this sentence then please do so. However, since you have defined faith I need to use your definition of it in order to understand your position.)
This is the most important part.
I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them instantly righteous. This calling on Him includes the following;
To willingly be bridled as a servant (like an animal with a wooden yoke is a servant) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alleged to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)
You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures.
You must seek to obey the Scriptures and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ because like you were a slave prior to salvation you will now be a slave to God.
At this point if the person has come to Christ in the likeness of this message then the person is eternally saved from God's coming judgement.
Q - Is this an accurate Lordship Salvation presentation of a saving message?

A - "Not many revisions there, Kevin." Then Mark went on to emphasize that his definition of saving faith is. He finished with "So I say that if one's faith in Christ does not look like Abraham's (Abram's)faith, as seen in Hebrews 11:8-19, then he does not have saving faith. "

Important note: The reader ought to note that Mark indicated no fault in my understanding at this point.

I responded to Mark with this:

Hi Mark,

I changed everything that you brought up, in accordance with your definitions.

Also, please don't drift into debate here. You're witnessing to me, not trying to win an argument.

There may be tomorrow for argument (if the Lord tarries), but today is the day of Salvation so focus on the Gospel.

Kev
Mark responded with "Ok, I will witness to you without words that need definition." He then offered this next part as his witness to me:
Kevin - Mark, I see you reading your Bible every day at break and lunch

Mark - Hey Kevin.

Kevin - for the past several months now I've noticed a growing desire in my gut to read the Bible to see what it teaches. Also I've experienced a growing fear that if there is a judgement I won't fair very well. I only hope that I can do enough good in my life so that God will look kindly on me. I'm really scared here.

Mark - Kevin, that is God the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart. Yes, there will be a judgement someday. Your Creator will one day be your Judge. He is Holy and morally pure. His judgement will be on all of our shortcomings in that WE are not holy and pure. At one point He told the Children of Israel that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from His mouth. We, the human race, do not do so. When our first parent Adam disobeyed by eating that fruit he fell from walking with God. He became a sinner; and all of us became sinners in him. You see, sin has about three definitions:

1) it means coming short of His Glory, His standards of pureness. If I were to try to throw a stone at the moon, the distance that I come up short would be sin.

2)It means an overstepping, like when you see a "No Tresspassing" sign and step onto the property anyway. It is here that we are seen to be disobedient to His Word. It is here that we are seen not to be living by every word that comes from His mouth.

3) it means a blemish. Your sins are blemishes on your record, a record that will come to be reviewed at the judgment.

We are sinners in that we sin daily. Most of what we live for is for self-gratification, without any regard for living in accordance to God's Word. It's our nature to live like that. Each time we do something contrary to what is written in God's Word it is recorded in a book. We could say that "self" is on the thrown of our life since the fall of Adam. We just are following the course of the world with our lives, with no regard for God and His Word. However our sin must be judged someday because God's standard of holiness demands that He judge sin.

However He now commands all men to turn away from their disobedience to His Word, and seeking to live for themselves, and to put there trust in HIS plan of salvation.

You see, Kevin, God sent His Son to die for our sins. He took every one of our sins and placed them on His Son. While our sin was on His Son God the Father unleashed all of His fury on those sins. It was a horrible death that Jesus died, all for our sins. He was judged in our place. After Jesus died for our sins He was buried. But, great news, He rose three days later and is now seated at His Father's right hand.

Kevin, there is nothing you can do to earn salvation. Men and women are saved by faith in His Son alone. There are no righteous things that you could ever hope to do to earn God's favor. His favor is only with those who put their trust in Christ alone for their salvation. The rest of mankind will suffer God's wrath on their sins.

Now for that growing fear of not fairing well on Judgment Day: Jesus gave an invitation. It is for all people. He said "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, (that's you, Kevin), and I will give you rest. Kevin, you can have rest instead of fear of the coming judgment. Why? Because Jesus' righteousness is put to the account of all who come to Him. He took our sins, and gives us His righteousness in their place.

The invitation goes on: Take My yoke upon you... Kevin a yoke was a wooden beam that was placed across the necks of oxen in order to keep them together. In the Bible a yoke came to symbolze servitude. Christ wants to place His yoke on you so that He can direct your life. You are to respond to Him in obedience. THAT is what is at the core of the Christian experience; obedience to Christ. Then He goes on: ...and learn from Me. Kevin, when one comes to Christ that one is to go on to get fed in His Word, the Bible. The one doing this will,...find rest for your souls. You do this at church and your own time of reading the Bible. He goes on,...For my yoke is easy, and My burden is light. His burden is light because God the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of those who come to Christ. He empowers that person to live for Christ.

Kevin, once you come to Christ I will urge you to receive water-baptism. It is what Christ commanded all of His followers to do in oorder to show the world that you are now a follower of Christ.

I will offer a response to this next week when I return home from traveling. Unless I get some unexpected time while I'm away.

79 comments:

mark pierson said...

Matthew 11:28-30 serves as my personal model for a salvation presentation.

To begin with I put before them that they are sinners before their Holy Creator, Who will be their Judge someday if they do not repent and believe the Gospel.

I present before them 1 Cor. 15:1-4 - That Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and that He rose again.

I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

I then introduce them to the center-piece of my presentation - Matthew 11:28-30. I summon them to come to Christ (in which coming I regard as the point of their justification); to take His yoke upon them and learn from Him ( representing repentance from sin, a transfer of allegiance from self seeking to Christ seeking - discipleship, progressive sanctification are seen here). I then lead them to an understanding that one who comes to Christ is a new creation and now it is time to go on learning from, and living for, Him.

I then make sure that water baptism is to be sought so that the world can witness the fact that their old self is dead, and it is now time to walk in newness of life, following Christ as Lord and Master.

Kevl said...

Hi Mark,

I'm going to offer a short reply here but I want to be clear:

Please witness to me. I'm not looking for a debate, I want you to witness to me.

I'm going to ask questions like someone who is being witnessed to might.

Please feel free to start over, I did explain that I wanted you to witness to me in my article but you may have misunderstood.

In my next comment I'm going to have some questions.

Kevl said...

Mark, as someone being witnessed to I have some questions.

As per the article you have promised to answer these questions using Scripture not your own wisdom.

What is a sinner?

I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?

What is a Christ?

What are sins?

What is grace?

What do you mean saved? From what?

Where is Christ that I can come to Him?

What is justification?

What does "repentance from sin" mean?

What do you mean allegiance to self seeking or Christ seeking?

What do you mean by discipleship?

What do you mean by sanctification?

What do you mean a new creation?

What do you mean living for Him?

What do you mean by making sure water baptism is sought?

I'm going to die?

What's "newness of life"?

What do you mean follow? I thought I had to go to Him?

What is a Lord and a Master?

You may want to start over, but I'm eventually going to ask you all these questions.

As per the article, your involvement here means you promised to answer these with Scripture.

Looking forward to these answers.

Thanks!
Kev

mark pierson said...

I don't know how to be any more plain in my approach than I was in my first comment. This was the very same approach used by the folk who led me to Christ.

Kevl said...

Hi Mark,

Please continue by answering my questions then.

Thanks,
Kev

Kevl said...

Mark I want to assure you I'm not going to debate point for point here.

I want to understand your position completely. It's safe for you to answer.

Please answer the questions I've asked using Scripture.

thanks,
Kev

Kevl said...

Note to readers:

I could not tell what Mark actually meant by his text because of all the terminology that was used. I was not able to tell him what I thought he meant because the terms he used were not defined.

It will be easier if Mark keeps his posts short, but I intend on going through this process honestly.

Kev

mark pierson said...

What is a sinner?
======
Sin= shortcoming, transgression.
Scriptues used: Romans 3:10-18.

none righteous
none who understand
none who seek after God
They have all turned aside
have together become unprofitable
There is none who does good
Their throat is an open tomb, with their tongues they have practiced deceit
Mouths full of cursing and bitterness
Feet swift to shed blood
The way of peace they have not known
There is no fear of God before their eyes...
================
"I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?"
===============
morally blameless, pure
==============
"What is a Christ?"
================
The Anointed one, the Messiah. Acts 2:30; Acts 4:26
==============
"What are sins?
============
Transgressions against God's standards - see Romans 3:10-18.
===============
"What is grace?"
============
Unmerrited favor, as opposed to works. Ephesians 2:8-9.
===============
"What do you mean saved? From what?
============
Saved from God's coming wrath. Romans 2:5-6, 2:16; 2 Thess.1:6-10; Rev. 20:11-15.
================
"Where is Christ that I can come to Him?"
==============
Seated at God's right hand. Acts 2:32-36. Colossians 3:1
==============
"What is justification?"
============
A legal term where God in His grace decalres the one who believes in Christ righteous. Romans 4:25.
============
"What does "repentance from sin" mean?"
============
Repentance means a change of mind. Biblically this change of mind results in turning from walking according to the course of this world, and the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience to learning of and following Christ, led of His Spirit. Matthew 11:28-30; Romans 8:14.
=============
"What do you mean allegiance to self seeking or Christ seeking?"
=============
Man is dead in tresspasses and sins and is by nature a child of wrath. Eph. 2:1-3 He is a slave to sin, Romans 6:17.
=============
"What do you mean by discipleship?"
================
Following Christ as a learner. Matthew 11:28-30
===============
"What do you mean by sanctification?"
===============
Set apart for God. It is both positional and progressive. 1 Cor.1:30 (positional). 1 Thess.5:23 (progressive).
==============
"What do you mean a new creation?"
============
Going from a natural man to Spiritual, being led by the Spirit as opposed to the flesh. Romans 8:14.
=============
"What do you mean living for Him?"
=============
Walking in obedience to His Word. 2 Tim.316-17.
==============
"What do you mean by making sure water baptism is sought?"
=============
It is in obedience to the Great Commission. Mark 16:15; and was sought in Acts 8:36-38; Acts 16:33.
===============
"I'm going to die?"
============
Yes. Hebrews 9:27
=============
"What's "newness of life"?"
=============
Romans 6:1-13. Once slaves of sin, now slaves of Righteousnes and of God.. You now have a new nature, with new desires - desires to serve God, walking according to His word. Romans 8:14.
===============
"What do you mean follow? I thought I had to go to Him?"
==============
There is an unbroken thought expressed in Matthew 11:28-30. Nowhere is it evident there that in the Lord's mind that He envissioned on coming to Him that did not also go on to take His yoke upon Him and learn of Him.
==================
"What is a Lord and a Master?"
============
Master - instructor. Luke 6:40; John 13:13.

Lord - supreme in authority, controller...STRONGS 2962 1 Cor.6:13 "the body [is] ..for the Lord

Luke said...

I had written something up before about the terminology. As it is written, I don't neccesarily disagree with what Mark said, but I know that the technical words used carry certain theological connotations with various groups of people.

I am a Pauline Dispensationalist. I would like to answer the questions too:

The way I have been presenting it recently is via the First Adam and Last Adam, and man being in either one - the former being a body of sin and flesh, the latter being dead to sin and alive in the spirit.

However, the question was not asked of me, but I'd like to answer the others

-
What is a sinner?
A sinner is someone in the image of Adam - all fallen men are sinners. You are not a sinner because you commit sins, but you sin because you are a sinner. The fact that you sin only proves this. A sinner is someone who has come short of God's glory. You, me, everyone. By the disobedience of one, many were made sinners.

-
I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?

Pure, blameless, righteous, just, perfect - basically what Mark said

-
What is a Christ?

An annointed one. There is the LORD (Jehovah's) Christ and this is Jesus Christ, but Satan is also a Christ. Ezekiel 28 makes it clear he was annointed over the throne of God, and in the future, he will imitate the true Christ.

-
What are sins?
Sins are the fruit of your nature. They are the manifestation of what you are, a sinner. Technically, they are trangressions against the Law, but sin existed before the Law, and thus, there was need for the law. Sin is anything contrary to God's perfect nature.

-
What is grace?
Unmerited favour given without expecting anything in return.

-
What do you mean saved? From what?
From God's wrath, From hell, from sin, from sins, from Adam, from self, from destruction

-
Where is Christ that I can come to Him?
Christ is Risen - He is alive. He is in Heaven by the throne of God. However, Christ, being God, is also everywhere and will hear you cry out to Him for help.

-
What is justification?
Being declared innocent. It is not "Just as if I never sinned". It is admitting "you have sinned, but you are free from the penalty". The penalty for sin has been taken care of. A punishment has been dealt out.

Luke said...

-
What does "repentance from sin" mean?
Repentance from sin, in terms of salvation, is not a proper term. It should be repentance from dead works, or repentance from trusting in any self effort or idol. It is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is lost and without merit and cannot hope to come up to His perfect standards.

-
What do you mean allegiance to self seeking or Christ seeking?

Well, I know what the LS advocates mean when they say this, but if I were to say it, it would mean trusting Christ alone, rather than any idol or self worth.

-
What do you mean by discipleship?

To me, discipleship is the obligation of every believer to take up their cross and follow Christ. But not all believers will do this to the same "level" as others. Also, taking up the cross doesn't mean to carry a huge burden on your back all day long. You are going somewhere with that cross, and it's a place of death - it is death to self, that one may live unto God. It is not the plan of salvation, but rather the path AFTER salvation. It - the cross - is the source of victory over sin in the beleivers life. On the cross, he is crucified with Christ, and is made dead to sin, as he reckons himself dead to sin daily.

-
What do you mean by sanctification?
There is postional sanctification which happens the moment one is saved. They are made righteous, justified etc before God IN CHRIST Jesus. However, the life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith on the son of God and this is practical sanctification, or the day to day sanctification. We do not become more righteous or more holy, because before God, we are perfect. But as we walk dead to sin, we become more mature and closer to God, in the flesh.

-
What do you mean by making sure water baptism is sought?

Water baptism does nothing. It is not an ordinance. It is not a sacrament. It is not the way to be a member at church. It is a public testimony of the death burial and ressurection and our identification with Him.

-
I'm going to die?

Yes. While Hebrews 9 has a good proof text for this, it is evidently not true for all men, since Enoch never died and never will, and Moses will die twice, and Lazarus also died twice, as well as others.

Kevl said...

Luke,

Thanks for your comments but please don't debate or cause debate in this thread.

The conversation can continue as normal in the other thread but I really want this thread to just be about Mark witnessing to me.

Thanks,
Kev

Kevl said...

Hello Mark,

You wrote

What is a sinner?
======
Sin= shortcoming, transgression.
Scriptues used: Romans 3:10-18.


I've answered more in the "sins" question. But I asked what is a sinner not what is sin.

I don't discern a definition here

"I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?"
===============
morally blameless, pure


I understand this to mean someone is either above some moral law or perfectly adheres to some applicable moral law - therefore they are blameless.

Scripture?

Do I understand your definition?

"What is a Christ?"
================
The Anointed one, the Messiah. Acts 2:30; Acts 4:26


What does anointed one and messiah mean?

These verses reference the name Christ but they don't explain it.

I don't discern a definition here


"What are sins?
============
Transgressions against God's standards - see Romans 3:10-18.


I understand transgression meaning a violation of a law.

Hod you transgress a standard? I assume you've mixed the definition you gave of a sinner into one sentence for sins.

The Scriptures you selected don't talk about a transgression, but they do give a number of character traits that appear to be in a negative light.

I believe you are saying that sins are bad or ungodly things that people do.

Do I understand your definition of sin?

"What is grace?"
============
Unmerrited favor, as opposed to works. Ephesians 2:8-9.


Using undefined terminology in an answer makes it very hard to discern what you are REALLY saying.

Please define this from the Scriptures without using terminology or at least define the terminology you use from the Scriptures without using terminology.

I'm asking you to be perfectly clear with no room for misunderstanding.

I discern no clear meaning here. Anything I would offer would be using MY interpretation of unmerrited favour and works and therefore would not be driven by LS Theology.

I'm going split this up into several posts so they are shorter.

Kev

Kevl said...

"What do you mean saved? From what?
============
Saved from God's coming wrath. Romans 2:5-6, 2:16; 2 Thess.1:6-10; Rev. 20:11-15.


I understand this to mean that when a person is saved according to the LS position that it means one will not have to endure God's judgement of the people which will see Him punishing people for their sins.

Do I understand your definition?

"Where is Christ that I can come to Him?"
==============
Seated at God's right hand. Acts 2:32-36. Colossians 3:1


I understand this to mean that I have to make my way to the throne of God.

Do I understand your definition?

"What is justification?"
============
A legal term where God in His grace decalres the one who believes in Christ righteous. Romans 4:25.


The verse you give doesn't define the word nor does it get used in the way you have defined it.

Is the person righteous as well as declared righteous or just declared to be?

I don't discern a complete definition here

"What does "repentance from sin" mean?"
============
Repentance means a change of mind. Biblically this change of mind results in turning from walking according to the course of this world, and the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience to learning of and following Christ, led of His Spirit. Matthew 11:28-30; Romans 8:14.


I believe you are saying that repentance is about changing your mind about something, and that "repent from sin" means that you change your mind and stop sinning "walking according to the course of this world" and start learning about following Christ.

The scriptures you list don't define the word repentance. They don't even use the phrase I asked about.

According to my promise to vigorously try to understand I searched for the phrase "repent from sin" in the various translations and could not find it. I don't mean to debate but to give you a point of reference.

If I don't understand your position you will have to define it more clearly.

Do I understand your definition?

Good spot to stop this post I think.

Kev

Kevl said...

"What do you mean allegiance to self seeking or Christ seeking?"
=============
Man is dead in tresspasses and sins and is by nature a child of wrath. Eph. 2:1-3 He is a slave to sin, Romans 6:17.


I do not discern an answer to my question here.

"What do you mean by discipleship?"
================
Following Christ as a learner. Matthew 11:28-30


The verses you offer don't offer a definition.

I don't know what you mean by "following Christ as a learner"

please define your terminology from Scripture.

I don't discern an answer to my question here

"What do you mean by sanctification?"
===============
Set apart for God. It is both positional and progressive. 1 Cor.1:30 (positional). 1 Thess.5:23 (progressive).


I think you are saying that God declares someone as "set apart" and they progressively get "moved apart." HOWEVER I am probably reading into your words because you have not defined them, neither in your definition or by the Scriptures.

Do I understand your definition?

"What do you mean a new creation?"
============
Going from a natural man to Spiritual, being led by the Spirit as opposed to the flesh. Romans 8:14.


I believe you mean that a new creation is someone who has a new Leader.

Do I understand your definition?

"What do you mean living for Him?"
=============
Walking in obedience to His Word. 2 Tim.316-17.


I discern this to mean that living for Him means to live in obedience to the Scriptures.

Do I understand your definition?

"What do you mean by making sure water baptism is sought?"
=============
It is in obedience to the Great Commission. Mark 16:15; and was sought in Acts 8:36-38; Acts 16:33.


I could have been clearer. Why do you "make sure" that someone seeks this? Do you HAVE to make sure or it won't happen? Or is it likely not to happen if you don't "make sure"?

I was not clear enough in my question so as to get a discernable answer from you

"I'm going to die?"
============
Yes. Hebrews 9:27


I meant I have to die to be saved?

Misunderstanding of the question has left no discernable answer to what I needed to know.

"What's "newness of life"?"
=============
Romans 6:1-13. Once slaves of sin, now slaves of Righteousnes and of God.. You now have a new nature, with new desires - desires to serve God, walking according to His word. Romans 8:14.


I believe you are saying that a person was once a slave (under inescapable absolute dominion) of sin, and that newness of life is being a slave (under inescapable absolute dominion) of righteousness and of God. Based on what you have written HERE and NOW I believe you mean that a person could only sin before but newness of life results in a person only being able to do righteousness.

Do I understand your definition?

Going to stop here again.

Kev

Kevl said...

"What do you mean follow? I thought I had to go to Him?"
==============
There is an unbroken thought expressed in Matthew 11:28-30. Nowhere is it evident there that in the Lord's mind that He envissioned on coming to Him that did not also go on to take His yoke upon Him and learn of Him.



"unspoken thoughts" could not by definition be defined by the writing they are used in.

In the Scripture you provide He says "Come to me" How can you say He means otherwise?

I discern no answer to my question


==================
"What is a Lord and a Master?"
============
Master - instructor. Luke 6:40; John 13:13.

Lord - supreme in authority, controller...STRONGS 2962 1 Cor.6:13 "the body [is] ..for the Lord


I believe you are saying that Lord and Master describes someone who teaches and lords over you. Someone who develops and controls everything about you.

Do I understand your definition?

Kev

Kevl said...

OK I've just responded to Mark's first round of answers to my questions.

Thank you for taking the time to do so Mark.

What I've noted is that many of Mark's "definitions" contain examples of the words he's defining but the Scriptures are not defining the words.

In many cases there was not even an example given.

Mark, I encourage you to use your hermeneutic to define these words not just give examples of them being used.

I will continue to vigorously try to understand your presentation to me.


ALL I thank you for continuing to not turn this into a debate. I NEED the freedom to ask Mark tough questions in order that I will come to an understanding of his position.

Kev

Kevl said...

Mark

Based on somehting Bridget said in the other thread. Please consider proceeding as follows.

I suggest that we go point by point based on my replies to your answers. PLEASE acknowledge any that I understand and then move one by one through the ones that I don't understand. This will make it easier for us to discuss.

mark pierson said...

Kevin,
I watched Luke's answers to you. His method of answering, as well as many of his answers, were similar to mine. This means that he and I both perceived your questions in the same way. I was amazed at your responses back. I'm affraid your responses back to me are beginning to look like this is a charade.

I was led to Christ by folk using this very model (Matthew 11:28-30). As one hearing the gospel for the first time I had no such questions as those you have posed to me in your responses to me. I understood what was being said to me right off. That is why this is beginning to look like a game.

I see some assumptions of my position on your part in your questioning. For the record I believe a person is eternally saved the moment he comes to Christ in faith.

I've watched Bridget carefully walk you through this concept that salvation is an present possession on your blog in the past. She did a fine job, yet you twisted all of her answers to you. Why do you think that an LS Calvinist would believe/teach otherwise, that salvation is an present possession?

Kevl said...

Mark,

I'm asking for a clear presentation. I am not looking to duplicate your experience, I'm looking to understand your position.

You've said that I don't believe it because I don't understand it. I am, as gracefully as I am able, doing my VERY BEST to understand your position.

I'm giving you opportunity to teach me exactly what you believe. You may very well lead me to Christ, if what I have believed is untrue.

Or you may free me from religious bondage that may have been keeping my walk unfruitful.

I have not read Luke's answers. This is not a debate, as I've been MORE than clear about.

Are you going to continue?

Kev

mark pierson said...

"what is a sinner?"
======
Anyone walking according to the course of this world, after the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience. Eph. 2:2
=============
""I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?"
===============
morally blameless, pure
=============
"I understand this to mean someone is either above some moral law or perfectly adheres to some applicable moral law - therefore they are blameless."

"Scripture?"
=========
1 Peter 1:15
===========
"Do I understand your definition?"
===========
yes

mark pierson said...

"What is a Christ?"
================
The Anointed one, the Messiah. Acts 2:30; Acts 4:26
================
"What does anointed one and messiah mean?

These verses reference the name Christ but they don't explain it.

I don't discern a definition here"
==============
If we look at John chapter one we see that the children of Israel were looking for God to send - "the Messiah", verse 41; "We have found him of Whom Moses wrote", verse 45; "The Son of God, The King of Israel", verse 49.

mark pierson said...

"What are sins?
============
Transgressions against God's standards - see Romans 3:10-18.
================
"I understand transgression meaning a violation of a law.

Hod you transgress a standard? I assume you've mixed the definition you gave of a sinner into one sentence for sins.

The Scriptures you selected don't talk about a transgression, but they do give a number of character traits that appear to be in a negative light.

I believe you are saying that sins are bad or ungodly things that people do.

Do I understand your definition of sin?"
==============
To add to your understanding, sins are any thoughts, words or actions that are counter to God's ways. Psalm 2:1-3 states that mankind has broken God's bonds in pieces, and has cast off God's cords. The requirment to love God with all one's heart, soul and srength (Deut. 6:5) is binding on all men. Man must live by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord (Deut. 8:3). To NOT do so is sin. Hence the need for a Saviour.

mark pierson said...

""What is grace?"
============
Unmerrited favor, as opposed to works. Ephesians 2:8-9."
=================
"Using undefined terminology in an answer makes it very hard to discern what you are REALLY saying.

Please define this from the Scriptures without using terminology or at least define the terminology you use from the Scriptures without using terminology.

I'm asking you to be perfectly clear with no room for misunderstanding.

I discern no clear meaning here. Anything I would offer would be using MY interpretation of unmerrited favour and works and therefore would not be driven by LS Theology."
=================
In Ehesians 2:5 we see that God made us who were dead in tresspasses and sins alive together with Christ. Dead undeserving sinners, deserving God's judgment, are shown His mercy (2:4), and that is so because of His great love. There is no measure of works that one can do to merrit God's favor.
=================
I'm going split this up into several posts so they are shorter.


Mark

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean saved? From what?
============
Saved from God's coming wrath. Romans 2:5-6, 2:16; 2 Thess.1:6-10; Rev. 20:11-15.

I understand this to mean that when a person is saved according to the LS position that it means one will not have to endure God's judgement of the people which will see Him punishing people for their sins.

Do I understand your definition?
==============
I see no problem here.

more coming...

mark pierson said...

""Where is Christ that I can come to Him?"
==============
Seated at God's right hand. Acts 2:32-36. Colossians 3:1
=================
"I understand this to mean that I have to make my way to the throne of God."
================
NO! For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13. Whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame, 10:11.
=================
"Do I understand your definition?"
=====
No. See above.

more coming...

mark pierson said...

""What is justification?"
============
A legal term where God in His grace decalres the one who believes in Christ righteous. Romans 4:25.
================
"The verse you give doesn't define the word nor does it get used in the way you have defined it."
===========
Sorry, poor choice of scripture on my part. I should have gone to Romans 3:25-26.
===============
"Is the person righteous as well as declared righteous or just declared to be?"
===============
He IS righteous. NO amount of progressive sanctification can add to his standing. He is righteous the moment he comes to Christ. There is NO WAY he can improve his standing.
==============
more coming...

mark pierson said...

""What does "repentance from sin" mean?"
============
Repentance means a change of mind. Biblically this change of mind results in turning from walking according to the course of this world, and the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience to learning of and following Christ, led of His Spirit. Matthew 11:28-30; Romans 8:14.
==============
"I believe you are saying that repentance is about changing your mind about something, and that "repent from sin" means that you change your mind and stop sinning "walking according to the course of this world" and start learning about following Christ.

The scriptures you list don't define the word repentance. They don't even use the phrase I asked about."
===============
Let us turn to Acts 26:18-20. Here Paul is before Aggrippa. He is describing his God-given ministry to him. Paul's message recorded there is possible only because of Christ's cross-work. There we see that Paul's message would result in opening eyes, turning from darkness to light, turning from the power of satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Christ.

But notice in verse 20 Paul's message was that people should repent, turn to God, AND DO WORKS BEFITTING repentance. Contained within this command of his I hold to be where Paul commands his listeners to do all that Christ has commanded, as per the Great Commission. In Acts 26:20, then, is the command to turn from sin. Also Matthew 11:28-30 can't happen unless there is an allegiance change.

mark pierson said...

more coming...

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean allegiance to self seeking or Christ seeking?"
=============
Man is dead in tresspasses and sins and is by nature a child of wrath. Eph. 2:1-3 He is a slave to sin, Romans 6:17.
===============
"I do not discern an answer to my question here."
=================
Man's slavery to sin is a bent or orientation towards sin or an disposition to sin. The core of his bent toward sin is his love for darkness, and his hatred of the light. John 3:19-20. The only ones coming to the light are those who show that thir deeds were done in God.

The unsaved seek those things that are considered by God to be darkness.
Slavery - their bent. They some times do good - phylanthropy comes to mind - but their bent is still darkness

The allegiance to Christ, on the other hand, is a bent to please the Lord. Paul acknowledged that this bent does not go unchallenged by the flesh, however, for it does. There is a war within each person between the flesh and the Spirit. Gal.5:17.

more to come...

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean by discipleship?"
================
Following Christ as a learner. Matthew 11:28-30
==================
"The verses you offer don't offer a definition.

I don't know what you mean by "following Christ as a learner"

please define your terminology from Scripture.

I don't discern an answer to my question here"
==============
When Christ bid people to "take my yoke upon you and learn from me", well, the yoke means that part that goes over an ox so that the driver of the oxcart can steer him. Christ wants to steer the lives of His people. Matthew 7:24.

"Learn from Me" is learning and abiding in His Word. Luke 6:40; John 15:7-8,10; John 13:34-35.

more to come...

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean by sanctification?"
===============
Set apart for God. It is both positional and progressive. 1 Cor.1:30 (positional). 1 Thess.5:23 (progressive).

"I think you are saying that God declares someone as "set apart""
============
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus...", 1 Cor.1:30. It is evident from this verse that it is not a declaration of God so much as a action of God. ==================
" and they progressively get "moved apart." HOWEVER I am probably reading into your words because you have not defined them, neither in your definition or by the Scriptures."
=============
This is where you are playing games. I both defined the word and supplied scripture.

More to come...





Do I understand your definition?

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean a new creation?"
============
Going from a natural man to Spiritual, being led by the Spirit as opposed to the flesh. Romans 8:14.
===============
"I believe you mean that a new creation is someone who has a new Leader."
===========
More like a new disposition. If we look at Galations 5 we see that a New Resident is there to show evidence of His Presence. A war begins within the new believer, one that will go on until the grave. But now there is a presence within the person, something or SOMEONE that was not there before. Then I consider Romans 8:14 and being led of the Spirit. God the Holy Spirit leads the person onto Christ-likeness. The things considered in Galations 5:22 and that declared Romans 8:14 are inseparable.

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean living for Him?"
=============
Walking in obedience to His Word. 2 Tim.316-17.
==============
"I discern this to mean that living for Him means to live in obedience to the Scriptures.

Do I understand your definition?
================
Yes.

This discusion getting to be rather long. I DO have a life. I shall answer a few more...

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean by making sure water baptism is sought?"
=============
It is in obedience to the Great Commission. Mark 16:15; and was sought in Acts 8:36-38; Acts 16:33.
================
"I could have been clearer. Why do you "make sure" that someone seeks this? Do you HAVE to make sure or it won't happen? Or is it likely not to happen if you don't "make sure"?"
===========
It is in obedience to the Lord that I lead a person into the waters of baptism. It is clear from Acts 8:36 that the eunuch sought water baptism. Why? There was no mention of it in the earlier verses. Philip must have included this in his evangelism. Again, Acts 16:33 the jailor submitted to water baptism. Why? There was no mention of water baptism in 8:31. Paul must have included it in his speaking the word to him in verse 32.

mark pierson said...

""I'm going to die?"
============
Yes. Hebrews 9:27
=================
"I meant I have to die to be saved?"
===============
No. And NO lordship teaching says so.

Getting really long here. If we don't shorten this I'll have to bow out.

I'll try a few more...

mark pierson said...

""What's "newness of life"?"
=============
Romans 6:1-13. Once slaves of sin, now slaves of Righteousnes and of God.. You now have a new nature, with new desires - desires to serve God, walking according to His word. Romans 8:14.
===================
"I believe you are saying that a person was once a slave (under inescapable absolute dominion) of sin,"
=============
Actually Paul said that. Your problem is with what HE said in Romans 6:17. Deal with Him.
================
"and that newness of life is being a slave (under inescapable absolute dominion) of righteousness and of God."
================
Again, your problem is with what Paul said in Romans 6:18, 22. It is clear from all of chapter 6 that we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. Note verse 6:20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. There is a principle here. Sin was the disposition, the orientation. Now a slave of righteousness is free to chase his new orientation and disposition, as seen in Romans 7:5-6, and Chapter 8:1-16.
===================
"Based on what you have written HERE and NOW I believe you mean that a person could only sin before but newness of life results in a person only being able to do righteousness."
================
No. Paul acknowledges a war within believers in Galatians 5:17.

mark pierson said...

""What do you mean follow? I thought I had to go to Him?"
==============
There is an unbroken thought expressed in Matthew 11:28-30. Nowhere is it evident there that in the Lord's mind that He envissioned one coming to Him that did not also go on to take His yoke upon Him and learn of Him.
==================
"unspoken thoughts" could not by definition be defined by the writing they are used in.

In the Scripture you provide He says "Come to me" How can you say He means otherwise?"
==============
Again, Matthew 11:28-30 is an single unit of thought. A plain reading will not yield the idea that Jesus envisioned one coming to Him that would not also take His yoke upon them and learn from Him. Your division here is arificial and system driven.

mark pierson said...

""What is a Lord and a Master?"
============
Master - instructor. Luke 6:40; John 13:13.

Lord - supreme in authority, controller...STRONGS 2962 1 Cor.6:13 "the body [is] ..for the Lord
==================
"I believe you are saying that Lord and Master describes someone who teaches and lords over you. Someone who develops and controls everything about you.

Do I understand your definition?"
=============
YES.


This is way tooooo long. I must spend time with the Lord and my family. If we don't find a shorter way to dialogue I will have to bow out.

mark pierson said...

take it from here,kev. Please find a shorter way to go about this, ok?

Kevl said...

Hi Mark,

take it from here,kev. Please find a shorter way to go about this, ok?

I'm going to try. It's very labourish I know.

I'm taking the rest of the night off from work.. it's been a crazy time.

As tired as I am right now I doubt anything I write would be helpful anyway.

I'll take this up again tomorrow so go have some rest for now.

Kev

Kevl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevl said...

OK Mark,

I've interpreted your original presentation using the definitions and explanations you have supplied and posted it into the original article.

Please read it and let me know if I understand what you're saying.

If I don't understand please clearly explain what I have wrong so that I can understand.

Thanks,
Kev

mark pierson said...

"You are a person who does things like the world does as the devil leads you in view of your Creator who follows His moral code and law perfectly."
================
A Creator who follows His moral code and law perfectly? Follows? He IS perfect!
=======================
"He will judge you someday IF you do not change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works and that you believe the Gospel.
============================
Well, not quite. YOU don't do anything. Repentance and faith are both gifts. Together they equal conversion. The LS person sees repentance and faith as happening simultaneously. They cannot happen one without the other. There is no faith without repentance, and no repentance without faith. That is why Peter had no problem not mentioning faith where you would expect him to in his sermons recorded in Acts 2:37-38 and Acts 3:19. Peter evidently saw such a close relationship between faith and repentance that he seemed to use the terms interchangably. Now, we must also keep in mind that Paul did say, Acts 20:21 - testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJV). Interesting order Paul places repentance and faith in.
======================
"The Son of God died for your sins, He was buried, rose to life again.
You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, by desiring to follow after only Christ."
===================
Whatever happened to my saying 'I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.' Sorry, I make it quite clear that no works are involved, not before, not after. Kevin, you seemed to leave this out...
==================
"This is the most important part.
I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them righteous."
================
I like it better in my own words, 'I summon them to come to Christ (in which coming I regard as the point of their justification)'. You see justification happens at the point of coming to Christ. But the coming is not complete w/o also taking His yoke upon you and learning from Him. Any thought of a division here, between coming to Him and taking His yoke upon you is artificial, and is system driven. No natural reading of Matthew 11:28-30 would yield the notion that there is a division here, between coming to Him. and taking His yoke upon you. One must approach this portion of scripture with a prior commitment to a Christian/Disciple dichotomy in order to arrive at the conclussion that the Lord envisioned someone coming to Him for rest and walking away without also taking His yoke upon them.
=============================
"This calling on Him includes the following;
To willingly be bridaled as with a yoke (more than leashed, a bridal is not flexible) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alliegeed to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)"
=====================
Not bad.

End of part one. Part 2 to follow...
================

mark pierson said...

part 2, continued -

"You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures."
===============
For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13. Remember I said a person is saved at the point of coming to Christ. The question is whether a person could be said to have truely come to Christ if they do not also take His yoke upon them and learn from Him. The New Leader mentioned above being God the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14. Yes, discipleship, signs of His residency, is the evidence of true conversion.
===================
"You must seek to obey the Scriptures"
==============
I add that your new disposition is that you WILL seek to obey the scriptures. I refer to the benefits of the New Covenant wherein God the Holy Spirit moves us to walk in God's ways.
=========================
" and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ.
At this point if the person is saved from God's future judgement.
==============
The one coming to Christ through the consideration of Matthew 11:28-30 is eternally saved.

Kevl said...

Mark,

Your first objection is about my use of your definition of Holy.

Here is our conversation on this point.

""I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?"
===============
morally blameless, pure
=============
"I understand this to mean someone is either above some moral law or perfectly adheres to some applicable moral law - therefore they are blameless."

"Scripture?"
=========
1 Peter 1:15
===========
"Do I understand your definition?"
===========
yes


I used the same definition that you agreed to.

Am I take it to mean that your definition of "Holy" is "perfect"?

Kev

Kevl said...


"He will judge you someday IF you do not change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works and that you believe the Gospel.
============================
Well, not quite. YOU don't do anything. Repentance and faith are both gifts.


Am I to take it that your definition then would be that God changes your course?

Kev

Kevl said...

You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, by desiring to follow after only Christ."
===================
Whatever happened to my saying 'I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.' Sorry, I make it quite clear that no works are involved, not before, not after. Kevin, you seemed to leave this out...


Here are the words that I'm interpreting using the definitions you have supplied.

I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

You first told me the "essence" of saving faith was desiring to follow after Christ instead of yourself.

You later told me that this was the "definition" of saving faith.

Your exact words were these Mark 8:34-38 serves as my definition of saving faith - a faith that desires to follow after Christ.

I'm using your definition here.

Kev

Kevl said...

I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them righteous."
================
I like it better in my own words, 'I summon them to come to Christ (in which coming I regard as the point of their justification)'.


Again, I'm using your definitions. You told me that to come to Christ was to call on Him and you explained Justification

Here is your explanation of the word.

""What is justification?"
============
A legal term where God in His grace decalres the one who believes in Christ righteous. Romans 4:25.
================
"The verse you give doesn't define the word nor does it get used in the way you have defined it."
===========
Sorry, poor choice of scripture on my part. I should have gone to Romans 3:25-26.
===============
"Is the person righteous as well as declared righteous or just declared to be?"
===============
He IS righteous. NO amount of progressive sanctification can add to his standing. He is righteous the moment he comes to Christ. There is NO WAY he can improve his standing.


Kev

Kevl said...

"This calling on Him includes the following;
To willingly be bridaled as with a yoke (more than leashed, a bridal is not flexible) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alliegeed to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)"
=====================
Not bad.


Glad to hear it!

Kev

Kevl said...

"You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures."
===============
For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13. Remember I said a person is saved at the point of coming to Christ. The question is whether a person could be said to have truely come to Christ if they do not also take His yoke upon them and learn from Him. The New Leader mentioned above being God the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14. Yes, discipleship, signs of His residency, is the evidence of true conversion.
===================
"You must seek to obey the Scriptures"
==============
I add that your new disposition is that you WILL seek to obey the scriptures. I refer to the benefits of the New Covenant wherein God the Holy Spirit moves us to walk in God's ways.


Are you just informing them of what their new disposition will be? Why do you say this part?

Kev

Kevl said...

" and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ.
At this point if the person is saved from God's future judgement.
==============
The one coming to Christ through the consideration of Matthew 11:28-30 is eternally saved.


I have to admit I'm a little confused. I THINK you're saying that one must agree and engage (start) in discipleship to be saved, and that discipleship will continue after salvation.

Is this correct?

Kev

Kevl said...

I will await your clarifications and then I will post another interpretation of your presentation as I understand it.

Thanks,
Kev

mark pierson said...

"Your first objection is about my use of your definition of Holy.

Here is our conversation on this point.

""I understand the Creator part but what does Holy mean?"
===============
morally blameless, pure
=============
"I understand this to mean someone is either above some moral law or perfectly adheres to some applicable moral law - therefore they are blameless."

"Scripture?"
=========
1 Peter 1:15
===========
"Do I understand your definition?"
===========
yes

I used the same definition that you agreed to.

Am I take it to mean that your definition of "Holy" is "perfect"?
================
The Greek word for Holy in 1 Peter 1:16 is hagios, the same word to identify the HOLY Spirit. Morally pure, upright, blameless in heart and life...page 70 of THE COMPLETE WORD STUDY DICTIONARY, NEW TESTAMENT, Spiros Zodhiates.

mark pierson said...

""He will judge you someday IF you do not change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works and that you believe the Gospel.
============================
Well, not quite. YOU don't do anything. Repentance and faith are both gifts.

Am I to take it that your definition then would be that God changes your course?"
===============
Yes. God brings His elect ones forth by His Word(James 1:18). Also we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). We see also that God takes the initiative in the salvation process in Ephesians 2:5. When the Word is preached the elect are convicted and come forth in repentant faith to God. The unelect will not do so.

mark pierson said...

"You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, by desiring to follow after only Christ."
===================
Whatever happened to my saying 'I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.' Sorry, I make it quite clear that no works are involved, not before, not after. Kevin, you seemed to leave this out...

Here are the words that I'm interpreting using the definitions you have supplied.

I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

You first told me the "essence" of saving faith was desiring to follow after Christ instead of yourself.

You later told me that this was the "definition" of saving faith.

Your exact words were these Mark 8:34-38 serves as my definition of saving faith - a faith that desires to follow after Christ.

I'm using your definition here."
===================
I would have prefered for you to have quoted what I actually said in my description of my gospel presentation, for therein is the distilled essence of my soteriology. Here is what I said there, 'by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone'. I stand completely by my earlier definitions of authentic saving faith as my definitions of saving faith stand in stark contrast to giving mental assent to the facts of the Gospel. However, those desires that I mention for Christ are the fruit of saving faith. If those fruits are not present then there is no saving faith. One who desires to go after Christ is exhibiting saving faith, its fruits. Those fruits themselves, however, do not attract God's saving graces to an unsaved individual. Nothing in my life warranted God's saving grace.
Neither do these fruits of saving faith add to our standing before God after one is saved. We are saved through faith. Again nothing in my life warranted God's saving grace.

mark pierson said...

"I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them righteous."
================
I like it better in my own words, 'I summon them to come to Christ (in which coming I regard as the point of their justification)'.

Again, I'm using your definitions. You told me that to come to Christ was to call on Him and you explained Justification

Here is your explanation of the word.

""What is justification?"
============
A legal term where God in His grace decalres the one who believes in Christ righteous. Romans 4:25.
================
"The verse you give doesn't define the word nor does it get used in the way you have defined it."
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Sorry, poor choice of scripture on my part. I should have gone to Romans 3:25-26.
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"Is the person righteous as well as declared righteous or just declared to be?"
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He IS righteous. NO amount of progressive sanctification can add to his standing. He is righteous the moment he comes to Christ. There is NO WAY he can improve his standing.
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When one comes to Christ in faith they are justified (Romans 3:26). One comes to Christ in faith, a faith that exhibits desire to follow Christ in discipleship ( Matthew 11:28-30; Mark 8:34-38). My standing before God is spelled out here, 2 Cor.5:21 - For He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. NKJV. Kevin, Jesus is the the Lord my Righteousness. He alone is my righteousness. I came to the table a wretched sinner, with nothing to appease God, nothing to attract His attention to me.

mark pierson said...

""This calling on Him includes the following;
To willingly be bridaled as with a yoke (more than leashed, a bridal is not flexible) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alliegeed to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)"
=====================
Not bad.

Glad to hear it!
==============
I will add that Christ as a carpenter must have made many a yoke, a yoke was a wooden beam put across the back of the oxen necks to keep to oxen walking together. In Bible literature it came to be a symbol of servitude, just as Christ used it in Matthew 11:28-30. We become His servants the moment we come to Him for salvation. It is an simultaneous event with our being justified, and happens when one comes to authentic faith in Christ.

mark pierson said...

""You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures."
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For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13. Remember I said a person is saved at the point of coming to Christ. The question is whether a person could be said to have truely come to Christ if they do not also take His yoke upon them and learn from Him. The New Leader mentioned above being God the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14. Yes, discipleship, signs of His residency, is the evidence of true conversion.
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"You must seek to obey the Scriptures"
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I add that your new disposition is that you WILL seek to obey the scriptures. I refer to the benefits of the New Covenant wherein God the Holy Spirit moves us to walk in God's ways.

Are you just informing them of what their new disposition will be? Why do you say this part?"
============
The reason I say this part is becase the New Covenant in Christ's blood has as its benefit God the Holy Spirit taking up residence within the person, causing him to walk in God's ways, and writing His laws on the person's heart. It is a glorious experience of Having God's Spirit change our disposition. Suddenly there is new desire to pray, read and study the Bible, Be with God's people, tell the unsaved about His wonderful Salvation... None of these desires were there before God the Holy Spirit took up residence.

mark pierson said...

"" and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ.
At this point if the person is saved from God's future judgement.
==============
The one coming to Christ through the consideration of Matthew 11:28-30 is eternally saved.

I have to admit I'm a little confused. I THINK you're saying that one must agree and engage (start) in discipleship to be saved, and that discipleship will continue after salvation.

Is this correct?"
============
Discipleship starts at the point of salvation, not before. It is the result of the new birth. Romans 6:18,22 speak to this. Here the slavery mentioned is one of becoming enslaved to God, or God enslaving a person. We are set free from slavery to sin. ALL people are salves. Either they are slaves of sin, or they are slaves of God. There is no other slavery. Nor is there anyone who is not a slave.

mark pierson said...

Take it away, Kevin.

I must return to work this week after these last 5 days off for diverticulitus. That means less time to communicate. I hope to interact here when I can, but it will be less so often than these past 5 days.

Goodnight, sir.

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

Thanks for putting up both book covers. Check MacArthur’s book.

The full title of John MacArthur’s original book is What Does Jesus Mean When He Says, Follow Me? The Gospel According to Jesus.

The title alone should raise concern even before one opens the cover. The point made in the title is that John MacArthur and those who advocate Lordship Salvation believe the Lord’s words Follow Me are a necessary component of the gospel and must be acted upon for salvation.

mark pierson said...

"The point made in the title is that John MacArthur and those who advocate Lordship Salvation believe the Lord’s words Follow Me are a necessary component of the gospel and must be acted upon for salvation."
================
Actually they are the fruit of genuine, authentic saving faith.

Kevl said...

I truly appreciate EVERYONE's involvement but please don't debate in this thread. The one right below is well oild up for debate. :)

Kev

mark pierson said...

Kevin,
I work second shift, 3-11 PM eastern. I must start getting ready for work at 1:00 PM. Just so you know, sir.

Kevl said...

Hey Mark,

I'm having a very busy day today. I'm traveling for the ministry on Thursday and I'm trying to get everything caught up. I will not let this fall by the wayside but I will be slow.

Kev

Kevl said...

OK Mark,

I've just added my first revision of my interpretation of what you're writing.

Again, I have used the definitions you have supplied to clarify what you had written.

The idea is to get rid of as much terminology as is possible so that the actual meaning of what you're saying is plainly visible to any person who can read English.

Please review and comment, thanks.

Kev

mark pierson said...
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mark pierson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mark pierson said...

Not many revisions there, Kevin. I'm on my way to vet visits and my own doctor visits these next several days. I'll be slow too.

In the mean time I'll ask lurkers to read Matthew 11:28-30 while I'm working on my reply. Also to read about Abraham's faith in Hebrews 11:8-19. Note how similar his trek was in comparison to the experience of the disciple of Christ. Note the beginning of his faith was exhibited in obedience, obedience to the call to "go out", in verse 11:8. This is just like how the true believer's faith is exhibited in obedience in taking Christ's yoke upon them and learning from him. Note how his (Abraham's) faith was exhibited in waiting for the city which has foundations, whose builder and Maker was God, 11:10. Here it is evident that Abraham's faith had him looking away from this world. Just like a true believer's attention is on his new yoke-fellow, to learn from Him. Note especially verse 11:13 where it is said that Abraham and those who walked in his example of faith confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. This is just like the true believer who no longer walks according to the course of this world, but now in Christ's ways. So I say that if one's faith in Christ does not look like Abraham's (Abram's)faith, as seen in Hebrews 11:8-19, then he does not have saving faith.

Kevl said...

Hi Mark,

I changed everything that you brought up, in accordance with your definitions.

Also, please don't drift into debate here. You're witnessing to me, not trying to win an argument.

There may be tomorrow for argument (if the Lord tarries), but today is the day of Salvation so focus on the Gospel.

Kev

mark pierson said...

Ok, I will witness to you without words that need definition.
============

Kevin - Mark, I see you reading your Bible every day at break and lunch

Mark - Hey Kevin.

Kevin - for the past several months now I've noticed a growing desire in my gut to read the Bible to see what it teaches. Also I've experienced a growing fear that if there is a judgement I won't fair very well. I only hope that I can do enough good in my life so that God will look kindly on me. I'm really scared here.

Mark - Kevin, that is God the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart. Yes, there will be a judgement someday. Your Creator will one day be your Judge. He is Holy and morally pure. His judgement will be on all of our shortcomings in that WE are not holy and pure. At one point He told the Children of Israel that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from His mouth. We, the human race, do not do so. When our first parent Adam disobeyed by eating that fruit he fell from walking with God. He became a sinner; and all of us became sinners in him. You see, sin has about three definitions:

1) it means coming short of His Glory, His standards of pureness. If I were to try to throw a stone at the moon, the distance that I come up short would be sin.

2)It means an overstepping, like when you see a "No Tresspassing" sign and step onto the property anyway. It is here that we are seen to be disobedient to His Word. It is here that we are seen not to be living by every word that comes from His mouth.

3) it means a blemish. Your sins are blemishes on your record, a record that will come to be reviewed at the judgment.

We are sinners in that we sin daily. Most of what we live for is for self-gratification, without any regard for living in accordance to God's Word. It's our nature to live like that. Each time we do something contrary to what is written in God's Word it is recorded in a book. We could say that "self" is on the thrown of our life since the fall of Adam. We just are following the course of the world with our lives, with no regard for God and His Word. However our sin must be judged someday because God's standard of holiness demands that He judge sin.

However He now commands all men to turn away from their disobedience to His Word, and seeking to live for themselves, and to put there trust in HIS plan of salvation.

You see, Kevin, God sent His Son to die for our sins. He took every one of our sins and placed them on His Son. While our sin was on His Son God the Father unleashed all of His fury on those sins. It was a horrible death that Jesus died, all for our sins. He was judged in our place. After Jesus died for our sins He was buried. But, great news, He rose three days later and is now seated at His Father's right hand.

Kevin, there is nothing you can do to earn salvation. Men and women are saved by faith in His Son alone. There are no righteous things that you could ever hope to do to earn God's favor. His favor is only with those who put their trust in Christ alone for their salvation. The rest of mankind will suffer God's wrath on their sins.

End of part one

mark pierson said...

part 2,continued...

Now for that growing fear of not fairing well on Judgment Day: Jesus gave an invitation. It is for all people. He said "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, (that's you, Kevin), and I will give you rest. Kevin, you can have rest instead of fear of the coming judgment. Why? Because Jesus' righteousness is put to the account of all who come to Him. He took our sins, and gives us His righteousness in their place.

The invitation goes on: Take My yoke upon you... Kevin a yoke was a wooden beam that was placed across the necks of oxen in order to keep them together. In the Bible a yoke came to symbolze servitude. Christ wants to place His yoke on you so that He can direct your life. You are to respond to Him in obedience. THAT is what is at the core of the Christian experience; obedience to Christ. Then He goes on: ...and learn from Me. Kevin, when one comes to Christ that one is to go on to get fed in His Word, the Bible. The one doing this will,...find rest for your souls. You do this at church and your own time of reading the Bible. He goes on,...For my yoke is easy, and My burden is light. His burden is light because God the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of those who come to Christ. He empowers that person to live for Christ.

Kevin, once you come to Christ I will urge you to receive water-baptism. It is what Christ commanded all of His followers to do in oorder to show the world that you are now a follower of Christ.

Kevl said...

Hi Mark,

I haven't read your comments yet but I've printed them. I'm trying to get things lined up for tomorrow's trip. I will respond as I am able.

Thanks,
Kev

Kevl said...

Thank you for sharing Mark.

I am now closing this conversation. I believe you have defined the terminology to the point that I can understand it.

I will not be able to draft anything further until next week. I am travelling for ministry.

I believe I understand your position.

I trust that you also believe I understand your position for two reasons.

1. you did not correct any of my last interpretations; and

2. this latest witnessing description (while decidedly not in your language style) agrees completely with the definitions you have supplied.

This conversation is now closed.

Kevl said...

Hi Mark,

I'm just getting up to speed with work and stuff since the weekend. I'm formulating my next response and that will be forthcoming in the next couple of days.

Kev

mark pierson said...

My hope is that you will work from my actual witness to you. That is why I provided it. Please deal with that as it was a response to your last revision which still showed signs of not understanding the LS position. Now you have the very message that was first preached to me, and the message that I now preach.

Kevl said...

Mark,

If my last showed signs of misunderstanding you surely didn't correct me.

I'm not able to guess your thoughts. Please offer clarity on any subject which you think I misunderstand.

I'm not simply going to continue on and on with this process.

Being a witness includes the ability to report what you know to be true.

Kev

mark pierson said...

If you deal with my actual witness to you, then and only then, are you truely dealing with my position, and not with what you THINK is my position. All the reader has to do is compare what I actually say in my witness to you with your revision that preceded it and they will see glaring differences.

For example: I do not bring up God's sovereign choosing of individuals in the gospel encounter unless they bring it up; but it is not part of my gospel presentation.

Secondly, I've maintained all along that characteristics or evidences of saving faith are manifested in the taking of His yoke upon you and learning from Him. Any "coming" to Him that stops short of taking His yoke upon you and learning from Him indicates that there was no coming at all; and no "faith" at all. In Matthew 11:28-30 we see the invitation go out to those who "labor, and are heavy laden". In other words those who are convicted of sin.

Again, no evidences of faith - taking His yoke upon you, and learning from Him - then there is no true authentic saving faith.

Kevl said...

All,

Please see my response to Mark's LS presentation at What Is Faith? My Response To The LS Presentation

Thanks,
Kev