Lordship Salvation Presentation with Q&A

EDIT 1: This is not a debate. This is a witnessing encounter with Q&A. Please do not engage Mark as he witnesses to me. I don't want him to have to compete, just be clear. I'll let everyone know when the conversation is over and debate can - if wanted by the masses can begin.

EDIT 2: MARK I suggest that we go point by point based on my replies to your answers. PLEASE acknowledge any that I understand and then move one by one through the ones that I don't understand. This will make it easier for us to discuss.

EDIT 3: The first results are in. Please read Mark's Lordship Salvation Presentation to me at the bottom of this article and the interpretation of it I have built using the definitions he has supplied in the thread below.

Edit 4: The first revision of my interpretation of the Lordship Salvation Presentation is added to the bottom of this pot.

Edit 5: Mark has supplied what he believes is a Lordship Salvation Presentation "without words that need definition." I still found some terminology in his post but I will use the previously established definitions which have been refined by conversation with Mark to interpret.  Please find a copy of what Mark posted at the bottom of this article. The discussion below this post has long since left it's intended direction and has gotten so long that any new reader would have a real challenge with getting up to speed. I think this hurts the potential for new comments so I'm going to create a specific discussion here.I'm asking a Lordship Salvation (LS) believer to present the Gospel to me clearly, as though I am an unsaved person they are witnessing to.I am going to ask questions of that person.


My goals are these:
1. get the LS Advocates to be on record with what they say;
2. confirm if I do properly understand LS Theology or not;
3. demonstrate a LS Gospel presentation for my readers; and
4. create a resource which I can refer back to in future discussions.
I promise to:
1. to honestly consider the presentation at face value;
2. to vigorously try to understand each point of the presentation;
3. to reply to statements with what I believe the person has written before I ask questions;
4. to acknowledge if this presentation leads me to Eternal Salvation;
5. to acknowledge if this presentation leads me to agree with LS; and
6. to keep posts as short and clear as possible.

The presenter(s) promise to:
1. present the Gospel clearly;
2. answer questions clearly;
3. define and explain statements using Scripture NOT any systematic theology;
4. not compare LS to any other theology (this is a presentation not a debate);
5. either acknowledge my understanding or clearly explain my misunderstanding of LS theology when I have expressed what I believe the presenter has written; and
6. keep posts as short and clear as possible.

All else who choose to be involved promise to:
1. allow the presenter to make their presentation without interference; and
2. to only respond to direct questions from either myself or the presenters. (space for conversation will be given after the presentation)

Here is Mark's Presentation as posted:

Matthew 11:28-30 serves as my personal model for a salvation presentation.

To begin with I put before them that they are sinners before their Holy Creator, Who will be their Judge someday if they do not repent and believe the Gospel.

I present before them 1 Cor. 15:1-4 - That Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and that He rose again.

I tell them that one can only be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

I then introduce them to the center-piece of my presentation - Matthew 11:28-30. I summon them to come to Christ (in which coming I regard as the point of their justification); to take His yoke upon them and learn from Him ( representing repentance from sin, a transfer of allegiance from self seeking to Christ seeking - discipleship, progressive sanctification are seen here). I then lead them to an understanding that one who comes to Christ is a new creation and now it is time to go on learning from, and living for, Him.

I then make sure that water baptism is to be sought so that the world can witness the fact that their old self is dead, and it is now time to walk in newness of life, following Christ as Lord and Master.

Based on the definitions and explanations Mark supplied in the thread here is what I currently believe he means. This is the first round and Mark can surely give further explanation on any points.

At several points through this conversation I've been accused of playing games. I have not debated, or manipulated but have only sought clarity. I'll leave it to the reader to discern if this is game playing or not.

I have tried to put Mark's words into a presentation to a lost person in order to keep everything in the required context.

You are a person who does things like the world does as the devil leads you in view of your Creator who follows His moral code and law perfectly. He will judge you someday IF you do not change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works and that you believe the Gospel. (NOTE: I, Kevin, assume the Gospel is the next part).

The Son of God died for your sins, He was buried, rose to life again.

You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, by desiring to follow after only Christ.

This is the most important part.

I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them righteous. This calling on Him includes the following;

To willingly be bridaled as with a yoke (more than leashed, a bridal is not flexible) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alliegeed to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)

You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures.

You must seek to obey the Scriptures and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ.

At this point if the person is saved from God's future judgement.

Q - Is this a completely accurate Lordship Salvation presentation to a lost person?

A - there was much, but not total, agreement that I had properly interpreted what Mark had written.

Here is my first revision of my understanding of what Mark presents as a saving message in accordance with Lordship Salvation.

You are a person who does things like the world does as the devil leads you in view of your Creator who is perfect. He will judge you someday IF He hasn't chosen in Eternity past to change your course from that of following the devil and doing his works to following Christ and doing his works so that you will believe the Gospel. (NOTE: I, Kevin, assume the Gospel is the next part)

The Son of God died for your sins, He was buried, rose to life again.

You can only be saved by mercy because you do not deserve it, through exhibiting a desire to follow after Christ alone. (NOTE: if your definition of true saving faith is desiring to follow Christ, and following Him is the fruit of that then I believe this is a perfectly accurate interpretation. If you can supply a definition of “faith” that is more accurate and appropriate for this sentence then please do so. However, since you have defined faith I need to use your definition of it in order to understand your position.)

This is the most important part.

I call on them to call on Christ to give them perfect standing before God and make them instantly righteous. This calling on Him includes the following;

To willingly be bridled as a servant (like an animal with a wooden yoke is a servant) to follow Christ's direction, and to learn from Him and the Bible. (Which means to willingly stop sinning, and be alleged to seeking after Christ not yourself which is having a desire to please Christ not please yourself and obey the things you read in the Bible. The person's behavior is progressively set apart from that of the world to that of Christ.)

You have a new leader who resides in you if you call on Christ (in accordance with the above) and now you must go on being lead by that leader, learning and living in obedience to the Scriptures.

You must seek to obey the Scriptures and get Water Baptized so you can declare to the world that your old self is dead (not living or running your life any more) and now you will live a new life of obeying Christ and the Lord of your life, and teacher. You may have a conflict inside but you will live for pleasing Christ because like you were a slave prior to salvation you will now be a slave to God.

At this point if the person has come to Christ in the likeness of this message then the person is eternally saved from God's coming judgement.

Q - Is this an accurate Lordship Salvation presentation of a saving message?

A - "Not many revisions there, Kevin." Then Mark went on to emphasize that his definition of saving faith is. He finished with "So I say that if one's faith in Christ does not look like Abraham's (Abram's)faith, as seen in Hebrews 11:8-19, then he does not have saving faith. "

Important note: The reader ought to note that Mark indicated no fault in my understanding at this point.

I responded to Mark with this:

Hi Mark,

I changed everything that you brought up, in accordance with your definitions.

Also, please don't drift into debate here. You're witnessing to me, not trying to win an argument.

There may be tomorrow for argument (if the Lord tarries), but today is the day of Salvation so focus on the Gospel.

Kev

Mark responded with "Ok, I will witness to you without words that need definition." He then offered this next part as his witness to me:

Kevin - Mark, I see you reading your Bible every day at break and lunch

Mark - Hey Kevin.

Kevin - for the past several months now I've noticed a growing desire in my gut to read the Bible to see what it teaches. Also I've experienced a growing fear that if there is a judgement I won't fair very well. I only hope that I can do enough good in my life so that God will look kindly on me. I'm really scared here.

Mark - Kevin, that is God the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart. Yes, there will be a judgement someday. Your Creator will one day be your Judge. He is Holy and morally pure. His judgement will be on all of our shortcomings in that WE are not holy and pure. At one point He told the Children of Israel that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from His mouth. We, the human race, do not do so. When our first parent Adam disobeyed by eating that fruit he fell from walking with God. He became a sinner; and all of us became sinners in him. You see, sin has about three definitions:

1) it means coming short of His Glory, His standards of pureness. If I were to try to throw a stone at the moon, the distance that I come up short would be sin.

2)It means an overstepping, like when you see a "No Tresspassing" sign and step onto the property anyway. It is here that we are seen to be disobedient to His Word. It is here that we are seen not to be living by every word that comes from His mouth.

3) it means a blemish. Your sins are blemishes on your record, a record that will come to be reviewed at the judgment.

We are sinners in that we sin daily. Most of what we live for is for self-gratification, without any regard for living in accordance to God's Word. It's our nature to live like that. Each time we do something contrary to what is written in God's Word it is recorded in a book. We could say that "self" is on the thrown of our life since the fall of Adam. We just are following the course of the world with our lives, with no regard for God and His Word. However our sin must be judged someday because God's standard of holiness demands that He judge sin.

However He now commands all men to turn away from their disobedience to His Word, and seeking to live for themselves, and to put there trust in HIS plan of salvation.

You see, Kevin, God sent His Son to die for our sins. He took every one of our sins and placed them on His Son. While our sin was on His Son God the Father unleashed all of His fury on those sins. It was a horrible death that Jesus died, all for our sins. He was judged in our place. After Jesus died for our sins He was buried. But, great news, He rose three days later and is now seated at His Father's right hand.

Kevin, there is nothing you can do to earn salvation. Men and women are saved by faith in His Son alone. There are no righteous things that you could ever hope to do to earn God's favor. His favor is only with those who put their trust in Christ alone for their salvation. The rest of mankind will suffer God's wrath on their sins.

Now for that growing fear of not fairing well on Judgment Day: Jesus gave an invitation. It is for all people. He said "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, (that's you, Kevin), and I will give you rest. Kevin, you can have rest instead of fear of the coming judgment. Why? Because Jesus' righteousness is put to the account of all who come to Him. He took our sins, and gives us His righteousness in their place.

The invitation goes on: Take My yoke upon you... Kevin a yoke was a wooden beam that was placed across the necks of oxen in order to keep them together. In the Bible a yoke came to symbolze servitude. Christ wants to place His yoke on you so that He can direct your life. You are to respond to Him in obedience. THAT is what is at the core of the Christian experience; obedience to Christ. Then He goes on: ...and learn from Me. Kevin, when one comes to Christ that one is to go on to get fed in His Word, the Bible. The one doing this will,...find rest for your souls. You do this at church and your own time of reading the Bible. He goes on,...For my yoke is easy, and My burden is light. His burden is light because God the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of those who come to Christ. He empowers that person to live for Christ.

Kevin, once you come to Christ I will urge you to receive water-baptism. It is what Christ commanded all of His followers to do in oorder to show the world that you are now a follower of Christ.

I will offer a response to this next week when I return home from traveling. Unless I get some unexpected time while I'm away.