Testing The Test - Part 1

Does it come from the Bible or not?

Lordship Salvation(LS) theology is an over-zealous response to the nebulous concept of “Easy Believism.” For the most part, the average person who follows teachers of LS theology desires to glorify God and have lost people be truly, or rather “soundly” saved. The unintended result though is that a false and unsaving message is presented instead of the Gospel and the lost are encouraged to do many other things than put their faith simply in the Christ Who has died for our sins in accordance to the Scriptures, was buried and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures and who was then seen alive in the flesh by many people over many days before He ascended to Heaven.

As if the result of lost people not being saved is not bad enough, truly saved people are given logical but invalid reasons to doubt their salvation. The message given instead of the Gospel is a call to discipleship and because discipleship is a life long process that will never comes to a perfect result in this life; there can never be true assurance of Salvation.

It is argued: All soundly saved Christians are Disciples. Being saved is invisible, but the works of Disciples are visible. Therefore, since all Christians are Disciples, if we test for the visible works of Disciples we’ll be able to test for the invisible Salvation. Therefore if one is able to fail a test of Discipleship they must have reason to doubt their Salvation. Discipleship is a process of growing. The more we grow the more accurately we see ourselves and so it is a process by which we become more and more aware of our shortcomings. Christ (and His sacrifice on the Cross) is magnified as we see more clearly both ourselves and Him. The LS theology proponent however would have us believe that Discipleship is a path of victory and triumph where our Salvation is confirmed by how good we become; If we are saved we will become good, if we are not saved we will continue doing evil works.

John MacArthur, a leading proponent of LS theology, offers a test to see if one is saved on his Grace To You website.   

I’m going to evaluate this test to determine if it is reliable and valid or not. In order for me to consider a test of one’s Salvation as valid it must meet all of the three following criteria:

1. Be in accordance with the Scriptures. If it does not explicitly come from the Scriptures then it is man’s wisdom and cannot be relied upon, and is therefore invalid.

2. Be passable by every single saved person, at every moment, in any situation. If it could give a false indication of an unsaved state to a person who actually is saved then the test is invalid.

3. Be impossible to pass for every single non-saved person, at every moment, in any situation. If it could give a false indication of salvation to an unsaved person then the test is invalid.

MacArthur’s website tells us that there are “two important tests in Scripture to determine whether or not he or she is a true believer.”

One objective, the other is subjective;

There is first of all an objective test, which asks, "Do I believe?" Ask yourself if you affirm the Scripture's record of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that He is God manifest in the flesh? Do you believe that God saves sinners solely through the merits of Jesus Christ's obedient life and substitutionary death on the cross?

This first objective test is simply, do you believe the Gospel? The Gospel can be found explicitly stated in 1Cor 15:1-11. Although objective test above does not state the full Gospel the intent is recognizable. For the sake of argument I will concede that the intent is to believe that Christ died for our sins, in accordance with the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures and was seen over many days to be alive by many witnesses. That this is the basis by which God saves sinners, and it directly provided for one’s own Salvation.

1. Does this explicitly come from the Scriptures? YES.
2. Can every saved person pass this test in every situation? YES.
3. Is it impossible for an unsaved person to pass this test? YES.

Three yeses mean this IS an accurate and valid test of the reality of one’s salvation, given that God is faithful to save all those who believe. The fact is that if God truly is faithful, if He is worthy of our trust then there is no further test required. Either His word on the matter is good enough or it is not.

However, assurance based on God’s faithfulness to do exactly what He says is not deemed as enough for assurance by the MacArthur website article. For it continues on now to talk about the believer’s performance, which of course is counter to the above test question - “Do you believe that God saves sinners solely through the merits of Jesus Christ’s obedient life and substitutionary death on the cross?” If that is the “sole” basis, then that is also the end of the test. Has that happened? Then the test is passed. Has that not happened? Then the test is failed. The results are clear and straight forward.

I will close Part 1 of this series with this very serious and I believe solemn statement. If a person is not assured of their salvation based on the faithfulness of God alone (that is to say that God saves those who believe in Him just as He has said) then they do not have saving faith. I do make allowance for the fact of saved people being led astray by false teachers after they have been saved. For example the Corinthians and Galatians were led astray after they were saved and went on to doubt the provision that they had originally received by believing the Gospel. So to state this plainly, if one has not received the Gospel, that Christ has provided for our salvation fully as our full, final and only hope, then they have not had saving faith.

To seek assurance of salvation outside of, or along side of, the provision of Christ and His just propitiation of God’s wrath is to call God a liar. 1Jn 5:10, Jn 3:33, Jn 1:29, Rom 3:21-26, 1Jn 2:2

We will pick up with the subjective tests that the MacArthur website suggests to readers in the next instalment of this series. 

Does God Love Sinners?

Art by Saxy Phrygian

It's a big question. Over the last number of years I've been working with people and around some ministries that make debunking "God hates sin but loves the sinner" -like statements a big part of what they do.

Straight up, I don't think that sort of statement is true. I think it has elements of truth, but is misleading and damaging to the Christian witness of Christ. I believe it is hurtful to the person it is told to. 

But DOES God love sinners? I want to chat with you about this question. I have some ideas, I have some things that I know to be true, and I have some opinions. What I don't have is a solid Biblical answer that answers not just the question - but the intent of the question. Well maybe I do.. but I'm not confident enough in it that I would preach the point.  

This conversation, that I'd like to have with you-all, stems from a conversation I had with my Pastor and one reader of this blog a few Saturday's back as we escaped the rain in a Tim Horton's coffee shop.  We were speaking about the Gospel and various related topics which in particular included disagreement about God's love, or hate, for sinners. 

I took the position that God hates sinners, and used Ps 5:5 as my proof-text (I use this term intentionally, most readers of this blog will realize the distaste I have for such practice). I didn't intend it as a proof-text, but it sort of turned out that way. My Pastor and the other Brother took the position that God loves sinners. We ended up agreeing that the subject was distracting from the thrust of the conversation and I promised to prepare an argument for my position and provide it to my Pastor. 

I have done no small amount of thinking about this topic since then. I have not dug into the Scriptures deeply enough to believe I have a strong answer, but here is where my head is at right now. 

Romans 5 is an amazing chapter (are there any which are not????) and Romans 5:8 is most interesting for our discussion. Does this mean God loved us, or He demonstrated His love before us as available to us? I really could go either way, but I have not done due diligence with the Greek yet. 

John 3:16 says that God loved the world (the kosmos or all creation) in this way, that He gave His only begotten Son.... 

1Jn 2:2 says this act was for the sins of the whole world (the kosmos or all creation). 

1Jn 4:10 seals the deal on if God loves sinners or not in my view.  

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His son to be the propitiation for our sins.

To my understanding, this verse coupled with Rom 5, 1Jn 2:2 and John 3:16 clearly means that God does in fact love sinners. 

However, this does not erase how God says that He hates sinners in many places Psalm 5:5 being just one example. Nor does it erase how we read over and over about God's wrath against sinners. 

I believe that God has a dual love and hate for sinners. His wrath abides on them, but He loves them as well, and salvation is available to any who access it through faith in Christ. 

So tell me what you think, please. 

Bad Kool-Aid: Late Removal of Submission from the Gospel

If you don't know what I mean by "Bad Kool-Aid" please read the introduction to this series.

Lordship Salvation proponents often claim that it in modern times submission to the Lordship of Christ has been removed from the presentation of the Gospel. To make this claim many high profile preachers are cited from Church history.

This is Bad Kool-Aid because when the Apostle Paul reminded the Corinthians (and all readers of the New Testament) of the Gospel which he received directly from Jesus Christ, and which all the Apostles preached and all Christians believed – he made no mention whatsoever of submission to the Lordship of Christ. 1Cor 15:1-11 Therefore there has been no removal of submission from the Gospel, lately, or at any time.

Link To This Answer!

If you encounter someone spreading the Bad Kool-Aid of a “Late Removal of Submission from the Gospel” please link them and their audience to this post. Here’s a TinyURL to use: http://tinyurl.com/2cjxlx7

Bad Kool-Aid: Late Invention of Carnal Christians

If you don’t know what I mean by “Bad Kool-Aid” please read the introduction to this series.

Lordship Salvation proponents often state that the concept of “Carnal Christians” was invented in modern times as an excuse for the terrible behaviour of some people claiming to be Christians. They say that as this behaviour became almost normal in professing Christendom that something had to be done to explain how this could be and the idea of “Carnal Christians” was born.

This is Bad Kool-Aid because most of the New Testament is written to Christians in order to correct carnal behaviour. In particular 1Cor 3:1-4 cites explicitly that there are “Carnal Christians.”

There then is debate about what Paul meant by this phrase but he explains it well himself in the passage; and all the more so with the remainder of his letters to this and other assemblies.

Link To This Answer!

If you encounter someone spreading the Bad Kool-Aid of a “Late Invention of Carnal Christians” please link them and their audience to this post. Here’s a TinyURL to use:  http://tinyurl.com/29vtasg

But let a man examine himself

The Lord's Table is for Believers only, and it is to be shared with only with Believers who are in proper fellowship. I will be leading the Family Communion service this Sunday and I'll be preaching from the following Scriptures.

Last week a Brother lead and reminded us that when we eat and drink at the Lord's Table that we are instructed to examine ourselves.  We read about this and why in 1Cor 11:23-34.

Note that this is clear instruction to Believers, and that the consequences of not obeying are dire. Believers who eat in an "unworthy fashion" are judged by God and can become sick even die. This is no small matter to be brushed aside. This is how seriously God takes the concept of "biblical separation."

But how are we to examine ourselves, what are we looking for, what are we to do about what we find? In some persuasions of theology we are told to look for the evidences of God's working in and through us. However, the Apostles Paul and John explain that we are to expose what we would rather have hidden, our sin, to the Light. We are to allow the Spirit, God's Word and our Brethren even to make manifest our sin so as to be cleansed from it and have true fellowship, rest and fruitfulness.

Eph 5:8-14 and 1Jn 1:5-10 are good examples.

The entire chapter of Hebrews 4 ( Heb 4:1-16 ) is about entering our rest in Christ. In order to do this we have to approach God "boldly." God who sees all, knows all and will judge all.

Heb 4:16 reads

Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. 

But what does "boldly" really mean? How ought we expose our sin to the Light and then come boldly? Well consider the Tax Collector and the Pharisee of Luke 18:9-14

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:  10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The Tax Collector who was a great sinner approached God "boldly" because he knew he was a sinner but came anyway - in faith. Boldly didn't mean he marched up to God, but that he feared God but came anyway! The Pharisee looked only at his good works and thought they gave him reason to have assurance before God.

The cup that Jesus called the blood of the New Covenant was the Cup of Redemption. We drink it today to proclaim the death of Jesus Christ for sinners until He returns. When we drink this cup we must do so in a worthy fashion, knowing our need of the Saviour - else we make Him a liar and so drink it in an unworthy fashion.  We do not need to reform our lives to drink the cup, but we do need to expose our lives to the Light. He'll clean us up as He chooses.

I'll close with Hebrews 10:19-25

19   Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,  20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,  21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,  22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.  23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.  24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,  25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 

Birthday Unknown

If you're a Christian; When were you saved? Why? Do you know the date? The time? Do you know the year? What was going on? Who told you about Christ? What were you told about Him? 


*UPDATE: This post is not intended to suggest that John MacArthur is not saved. I believe that he is, but this belief is based on other testimony than what he shares in the following quoted interview.  This interview is obviously an incomplete testimony (for whatever reasons) but I'm interested in discussion about if this was the only testimony a person had - are they saved? Would you be concerned about their salvation? There are currently 25 comments below this article.  I highly suggest reading the first few and then skipping to any past 25. As much of the middle discussion is about MacArthur. 


Here's how Dr. John MacArthur describes his conversion, as detailed at his Grace To You website. 


Here's part of the interview between Phil Johnson and John MacArthur. 

PHIL: How old were you when you first recall sensing your need for Christ?

JOHN: Well I always believed the gospel. I don't ever...I don't ever remember a time when I didn't believe the gospel. I mean, it was so wonderfully modeled by my Mom and Dad, it was so consistent. They were exactly at home what they were in the church. And what my Dad was in the pulpit he was in the house. And Christ was always very wonderful to me and inviting to me. And my Mom and Dad lived out their Christian life before me. And so, I never rebelled against it. I always knew I needed Jesus to be my Savior.

But there was an incident when I was about nine or ten. I had gotten involved in some vandalism because some kids had kind of prompted me to do it. My Dad was actually preaching in another town and he took me with him for the week of evangelistic meetings and some kids vandalized a school. And they happened to be, one of them happened to be the pastor's kid and so he drags me along, you know, my Father takes me to spend the week with this pastor's family with him. Anyway, I get involved in this thing. And they did some stuff in the school and I came back and I was...I felt terrible and frightened by it. And I sat down on the steps with my Dad...as a result, I don't know...remember the exact time sequence, but I said, “You know, I think...I'm not a good boy and I need the Lord to forgive me.” And that was sort of an initial prompting. And I remember my Dad praying with me on the steps that the Lord would save me. There may have been other times that I brought it up, but that one stands out in my mind. And as to whether I was actually converted at that time, I don't know. Again, in the years following I never rebelled, I was always responsive to the things of Christ. But I don't know that they were really the dominant matters of my life and the priorities that early.

PHIL: So you're saying...are you saying it would be difficult for you to put your finger on when your conversion took place?

JOHN: Yeah. I've never been able to do that. And it doesn't bother me. I think I'm one of those kids...I was one of those kids that never rebelled and always believed. And so when God did His saving work in my heart, it was not discernable to me. I went away to high school and for all I knew, I loved Christ, I was part of the ministry of the church. I went away to college and I wanted to serve the Lord and honor the Lord. I was certainly immature. But at some point along the line, I really do believe there was a transformation in my heart, but I think it may have been to some degree imperceptible to me because I didn't ever have a rebellious time, I didn't ever revolt against, you know, the gospel or not believe. And I guess that's...in some ways that's a grace act on God's part. So that all that wonderful training found some level of fertile soil in my heart and none of it was wasted.

It is entirely possible that a person can believe the Gospel at such a young age that they won't later remember the event, but I've never heard of it happening before. I'm not aware of this topic having been discussed at any of the blogs I frequent, or among my peers.

So what do you think? Can someone be saved and not remember how or when it happened? I don't think that 2 Peter  1:9 applies here but if you want to include it in your discussion please feel free.

On My Walk: Some Personal Updates

MusicMan Bongo 5 String

Pouring time into one thing always takes time away from something else. Time is the one resource we can never restock once it is spent, and it's also the one resource that can't be audited. We never know how much more we have to spend on things. Today could very well be the last day of this life, and the first day of the next.

When I was leaving my previous ministry position one of the things that was brought up about me by a critic was that I tend to be discipled at a distance. I thought the statement was hurtful, perhaps even intentionally so, but mostly based on ignorance more than true observation. However, the truth was that I was pouring every minute into that ministry and this really did cause me to not be deeply involved in other things. It was a sacrifice that I was more than willing to make. 

As I have been restructuring my life since resigning I've found time for many wonderful things. My wife and I have MUCH more time together now which has been a true blessing. I'm also more able to be involved in things going on at my church. For instance this week I played bass and guitar during a get together of friends, and I played bass with the worship band at this morning's service. 

Playing bass used to be a huge part of my life but it has had to be all but given up in recent years. Now this week came and I was blessed with being able to play with some lovely people! The congregation did seem to appreciate the music as well. The man leading the team has a very good understanding of how musicians work together in playing music and so I felt I had a kindred friend to work with. What a wonderful time! 

The Lord is good, my walk progresses and He is moulding as He chooses. 

Baptisms This Sunday

So what did you do after church today? I got to help my Pastor baptize three Believers!!! In case my American friends are wondering; yes lake water in Canada on Nov 7th is VERY cold.

'BUT' Theology - Part 5 - Conclusion

Picture removed to spare those
who are prone to stumble.

This Part 5, and the conclusion, of my response to the sermon preached by Pastor Norm Millar at Harvest Bible Chapel in London Ontario on 26 Sept 2010 entitled "Knowing Where You Stand With Jesus." If you have come directly to this post, please read Part 1 first because the context of Pastor Millar's sermon is fully explained there and mostly in his own words. Then read Part 2 which covers most of his strongest arguments. Part 3 also deals with a large number of textual arguments, most of which the Pastor made in passing. Part 4 dealt with a number of passages where the Pastor added his own words to the Text, and skipped some important information that the Lord gives us in His words. 


I'm just going to pick up where we left off last time, because this last article may be the longest yet! Pastor Millar begins the home stretch of his sermon applying John 14:15 to the life of people who profess to have faith in Jesus Christ.

“Here’s five simple questions you need to ask yourself and examine yourself with the answer to.. now, now please hear me… I’m not saying if you fail these you’re not saved. I can’t say that about you, you can’t say that about me. We don’t see each other’s heart. I would never, Lord willing, say you’re not saved. I might say you look like you’re not saved.

When I do funerals I try to be very careful. But sometimes there’s so much fruit and so much evidence it’s like man I really really really believe they’re saved. But I’m not the judge of that, so I’m not saying you’re not. I’m saying examine your own heart before the Word of God.

Here’s just five simple tests.”

To be fair, the prime thrust of his argument is that he can’t judge your salvation and you can’t judge his. BUT (that’s for Look Up) the fact remains that when the chips are down and he’s doing the funeral of someone he knows, and who has “so much fruit and so much evidence” he’s not able to say they are saved.  You’ll see in his five questions that he sets the bar VERY low.. is there “any glimmer” of what he asks you to test for… but when there is “so much” he can’t say that salvation has occurred? To be blunt… if the test can’t be trusted then it is not of God.

Now I have written in the last couple of parts of this series that this part would start out with me agreeing with Pastor Millar. Perhaps I should have thought about that a bit more before I wrote it. I’ll start agreeing with him now… which is close to the start.. but not exactly the start.

Now here's his 5 question test.

1. Do you have conviction over your sin?

He goes on to talk about how the Scriptures say that the Lord disciplines all those who are His, and those who are not disciplined are “illegitimate sons.” Shockingly I agree with this… it is Biblical. Heb 12:3-11 However, the presence of what might appear to be conviction doesn’t indicate Eternal Salvation – because any number of things can convict us of behaving poorly. The law of the land, our peers, our family, our up-bringing. This is not an accurate indicator of Salvation… but if you are in fact saved and God’s Spirit indwells you then you will be convicted of your sin. That is until you seer your conscience…. And forget that your sins were cleansed… What’s more, Hebrews 12 makes no sense in the Lordship Salvation theology. If you truly have saving faith then you will obey… you don’t need to be trained to obey, it’s part of your faith.

OK the agreement portion of this article is now concluded, I hope it was worth the wait.

2. Do you have any desire for Jesus? “is there any sort of kindling of love in your heart?” “maybe it’s just a light flame, but is there any sort of desire in your life for Christ?”

He references Phil 3 very quickly, saying “it talks about this” but he moves quickly away from the question. I really don’t know how this can determine if you are saved or not. I find the contrast between “so much fruit” and “is there any sort of…” here to be disturbing. How can he preach such differing standards? I don’t get his point and I’m not sure it’s important.

3. Do you see evidence of growth in your life?

Again this is about maturity not determinative of if you have been Born Again or not. Does a plant grow when it is choked out by weeds? Does a plant grow when it is starved for food? Does a plant not growing mean it isn’t a plant? The constant confusion of discipleship with salvation is a great cause of offense to the Scriptures by Lordship Salvation proponents.

One notable departure from some other Lordship Salvation proponents is heard here though. He speaks of how “we” can struggle with the same sin over and over. I’m not sure how tshis fits with the rest of his theology, but at least he is not making all the mistakes that most Lordship Salvation proponents make.

4. Are you growing even a little more humble or teachable?

This is an interesting one as well. For in my inbox I have an email from one of the Pastors on his staff, who has been a dear close friend – as much a brother to me as anyone could possibly be – for about 15 years. That email says that he will not devote any more study time to the subject of Lordship Salvation. I have troubled the man very little with this subject. I offered him a single email that detailed all the good resources I knew to help him. He responded with a note about having read the foolish writings of Zane Hodges – instead of the good and credible resources I offered. Also on my kitchen counter are two boxes with books I paid for and sent to him. Lou Martuneac’s In Defense of the Gospel and Dr. Fred Lybrand’s Back To Faith. He emailed me when he received them offering three options. He could return them to Amazon, send them to me or dispose of them himself.

Are you growing even a little more humble and teachable? I’m sorry but I can’t take this question seriously. I’m also not sure it has anything to do with determining whether a person is saved or not.

Please forgive me the personal intrusion into this series. The influence of this Pastor drew my best friend away from the Gospel of Christ to another that is no gospel at all.  The personal aspects neither validate nor negate the truthfulness of his message or my challenge of it. Please determine the validity by the Scriptures alone.

5. Do you have a love for the world? “That’s not good.”

He notes immediately after asking that we all love the world at times, and asks:

“…but is that who you are? Or are you being renewed in your minds? Or how about this are you offering yourself daily as a sacrifice?”

Where in Scripture is salvation conditioned on “offering yourself daily as a sacrifice”? One might read Romans 12 and find that this is optional for a Believer, that it is something we ought to do – as our rightful service, not something that all true Believers will do.

This is where he tells his listeners to read 1John for more “tests” and we dealt with that last time in Part 4 of this series, because it fit better there.

Here he says that if you fail his test;

“there’s a good chance that you do not know God and you do not belong to Him.”

Next the Pastor offers two more questions. Do you know Jesus? Which he breaks out a number of scenarios… basically he wants to know how well you know Jesus. Do you spend time with Him? Can you tell me all about Him?

I’m at a loss to find where Scripture conditions my salvation on how well I know Christ. 1Cor 15 tells me that if I receive the Gospel – that He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures that I am saved. Not if I know lots and lots about His life….

Then he asks what he says is the most important question – Does Jesus know you? This is where he brings up that those in Mat 7 who call Him “Lord, Lord” are truly mindful of the Lordship of Christ. He says:

“These people are really thinking ‘He’s my Lord!’”

 “They profess a relation ship with Him ‘We believe in You’” and goes on to remind us that He never knew them." 

Again, he adds his own theology into the words of the Lord. How can you do this? Especially in THIS of all sermons?

It’s true that if the Lord does not know you, you are not going to get into Heaven. But you don’t know if the Lord knows you by your works. You know it by having received the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1Cor 15:1-11 tell us this clearly.

Now here is your listening assignment, and I’m being serious. Please listen to the man preach. At this point in the sermon you will hear what is either a performance worthy of lofty awards… or a broken heart desperate for those who are listening to respond to his sermon.

I think it’s a broken and desperate heart. I’ve listened to this sermon some 15 times now. As enraged as his abuse of the Text can make me, at this point my heart softens and my emotions melt and I ache for the man.

Please start listening at 37:40 thru to the end of this 43 minute sermon. You can find the recording here. The Pastor asks his worship band to come up and play a song. These guys are wonderful players. When I have been at Harvest London I’ve delighted by how well these people play.  He tells the people to pray the words of the song… or sit there silently examining themselves…

How can you pray to God and hear what God is telling you and revealing to you while a rock band is playing in front of you?  This is nothing more than guided emotionalism. It has nothing to do with seeking God.

The recording then jumps ahead and you hear the emotive music playing and the Pastor starts to speak again, now very emotional. He starts offering his solution, or rather solutions to those who failed the test. Please listen to him preach this, and consider these question – what doesn’t he say? What’s missing?

Here are the things he tells people to do, after having said there’s nothing they can “do.”

“If you’ve examined yourself and you’ve failed the test. You don’t have to do something. You have to come to the cross and fall at the foot of the cross.”

“Maybe you haven’t surrendered. Listen believing is; I turn fully and completely from myself and everything…… Trusting in myself…doing it my own way… all my own ideas and I just surrender. I open myself I just turn to Christ and it’s all Him.  It’s a faith.. it’s a believing.. it’s a following”

With 2 minutes left in the sermon He starts to pray to the Father. When he gets to those who have failed the test he prays;

“That this would be the time, right here right now they’d be willing to repent and turn fully from their sin and turn to serve a living and true God. To just let go of everything and hand it over to Christ.”

He goes on to tell the Father that is “our desire” to have this play out in all areas of our lives. I have to say “That’s a lot of doing for the people to do who he says ‘don’t have to do something.’”

So we’ve reached the end of the sermon. What’s missing? 

THE GOSPEL IS MISSING. 

Other than a vague reference to coming to and falling down at the foot of the cross we have no preaching here that God’s wrath has been propitiated by Christ’s death. Much earlier in the sermon he also noted that knowing Jesus died for your sins ought to humble you. We have not told that justice has been satisfied for our sins in this sermon. This man puts a crowd in fear of their eternal life, and holds back the only hope they could have! 

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN NOTHING TO PUT OUR FAITH IN!

Here's what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:16-17 

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Do you hear the words of the Apostle here? The Gospel is the power of God to salvation for EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES. The just shall live by faith! Not by obedience. Not by faith + works. Not by a faith that works. The just shall live by faith!

In Romans 4:1-6

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.  For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,  just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Notice please that the Apostle did not write "But to him who does not work but has a belief that works on Him.... his faith that works is accounted for righteousness..... to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works." BUT this is what the Pastor would have you believe the Apostle meant! There's a faith that does nothing he says, and it is a false faith. A true saving faith is a faith that does something, that changes you, that works, that loves, that perseveres....

He started out saying shocking words “It’s all of grace and it’s all of faith. It’s believing. We affirm that completely BUT…” He went on many times to assure us that he doesn’t add works or obedience to the Gospel. But when he gets to the point of his sermon where he knows many people are doubting their salvation what does he tell them about? What they must DO. He doesn’t tell them that their sins have been paid for! He doesn’t tell them that Christ died for their sins and rose again victoriously so that we can have life! He doesn’t tell them to put their faith in Christ. He tells them to “repent of their sin and turn to serve a living and true God” 

What religion is this?

Friends. Beloved. Jesus Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures. He died and was buried, then rose to life again the third day according to the Scriptures. He was seen alive and in the flesh by MANY brethren for MANY days. By this we know that God has accepted His sacrifice on our behalf and if we believe this we are in fact saved because we have believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does God say about sermons like this? Read the book of Galatians to find out explicitly. Read it out loud. Preach it to yourself. Preach it to the wind as though it could hear! Preach it to Harvest Bible Chapel in London. Preach it to Pastor Norm Millar. Preach it, for it is true.

Paul declared what the Gospel is, that Gospel which he received from Christ Himself and that ALL the Apostles preached, and what EVERY SINGLE truly saved believer hangs his or her hope on in 1Cor 15:1-11. Beloved, if this is not your hope then you are not saved. I don’t have to waffle on this whatsoever. I don't have to change the meanings of passages, skip verses and insert my own thoughts and words. It is the truth. If the Gospel is your hope, you are saved. If it is not, then you are not.

Pastor Millar commented on Part 1 of this series saying that he would not be returning to my blog. Likewise I will not be returning to listen to any more of his preaching. 

A false gospel is poison to Believers, and to the world.

I’ll close with Galatians 1:6-9

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.  As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 

'BUT' Theology - Part 4

Image removed
to spare those who may stumble.

This Part 4 of my response to the sermon preached by Pastor Norm Millar at Harvest Bible Chapel in London Ontario on 26 Sept 2010 entitled "Knowing Where You Stand With Jesus." If you have come directly to this post, please read Part 1 first because the context of Pastor Millar's sermon is fully explained there and mostly in his own words. Then read Part 2 which covers most of his strongest arguments. Part 3 also deals with a large number of textual arguments, most of which the Pastor made in passing.

This sermon is intended to apply John 14:15 to the life of someone who professes to have faith in Jesus Christ. Pastor Millar asks you to examine yourself to see if you are in fact in possession of saving faith. I have been taking issue with the Pastor's interpretation of many passages, and definitely with his view of how someone knows if they are saved or not. I will cover his solution to those who fail the test he administers from the pulpit, and what I believe Scripture has to say about all of this as I conclude the series in Part 5. We have already covered a lot of ground, and in this part we will examine  how he applies three more passages of Scripture. Having completed this task we will have looked at all the support he cites for telling people to evaluate their salvation by their obedience.

Picking up where we left off last time. Pastor Millar speaks about a typical "professing Christian" and then states that the day before was notable for being a less than ideal day for his audience to have followed him around.

"If you followed me yesterday, oh man...."

Again I ask; how could that be? If you're a true "Christ Follower" then you'll obey His commands right? And if you're obeying His commands then you ought not be wary of having people watch you. Some will say that the man is simply being humble and graceful. They'll say that his embarrassment is probably over something which we would think of as very small. However, here is where the sermon starts to loose even it's philosophical power. How small can disobedience be that it does not require death? Is there a level of disobedience that is not  so evil that Christ had to be crucified to propitiate God's wrath for it?

"We're not talking about perfection, we're talking about a direction."

"You will obey Me, not every day...."

"Seasons of disobedience"

Please forgive me for being flippant but I guess the results of this "test" the Pastor is administering are greatly dependent on when you take it. 

He continues;

"We are talking bout some change. Some desire. Somethings happening."

Is this what the Lord said in John 14:15? "If you love Me you will have some desire to obey My commandments." I'll let you draw your conclusions. I'm sure there are some who think this is perfectly reasonable. Others will be offended by how flexible the Inspired Text appears to be in the Pastor's mouth.

He goes on and cites a book that his Pastor of Local Missions provided to him about the stats of people in Christendom (he means all the people who call themselves Christians). He gives a number of statistics about how poorly professing Christians seem to conduct themselves, at least based on the statistics he presents. I don't need to get into each stat, but there is one interesting one.

"Only 6% of Born Again Christians Tithe."

Whoah. That's a big topic...and probably one I should dive into at some point. Remember the Pastor is administering a TEST to his audience (congregation and untold numbers of online listeners) so they can determine IF they are actually saved or not. Perhaps this stat is presented to show that 94% of people who profess to be saved are not obeying Christ's commandments?


I have to ask the question, is there a single biblical record of Born Again Christians Tithing? Is there a single instruction to Christians in the Bible to Tithe? When the Pastor introduced John 14:15 at the beginning of his sermon he wondered if people even knew what commandments the Lord was talking about. Likewise, before you answer about Tithing I want you to determine if you know what Tithing actually IS, how it is actually DONE, and then determine if Christians do this or not.

The real important thing to detail is that the Pastor is saying it's a problem with our faith, or the Gospel we preach that is causing this problem in "Evangelicalism." He is presenting a logical fallacy known as a False Dilemma. Which is to say, he is not allowing his audience to consider all the possible sources of the problem. Might the problem be with how Evangelicalism is structured and run? Since discipleship, biblical correction and biblical separation are marginalized in a system where "if you don't obey you're not saved" there is no effective means to disciple a person. They are simply either obediently saved, or disobediently lost. If there is no effective discipleship there will be very little victorious living.

He says;

“There's something wrong...."

He's absolutely correct, though not in the context he meant it in. There's something wrong when those who God has cleaned are called dirty Acts 11:4-15, and those who God has freed are dragged into bondage. Gal 5:1 I'm getting ahead of myself, and we should get to the final textural arguments offered in the sermon.

Pastor Millar reads through and interprets most of Mat 7:13-26 He explains that we all understand that Jesus is “the Way” and the Gate of vs 13 & 14. His interpretation shows up starting at vs 15. 

Beware of the false prophets – these are people who profess to be Christian, believers, God followers, but they’re not they come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly they’re ravenous wolves.

Now look at vs 16 You will recognize them… by what? By what they say they are? By their fruits. How they live.  He says are grapes gathered from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? So every healthy tree bares good fruit but the diseased tree bares bad fruit. If you love me you will keep my commandments. If you truly love me there will be some fruit there. There will be some evidence of God in your life.

Look at vs 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Vs 21 Not everyone, these are shocking words, not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

In his speech he connects Vs 21 to the previous verses, instead of the introduction of a new teaching point as most of us will be familiar with. What I find most amazing about how the Lordship Salvation proponent will use this verse is that they must truly expect us to just take their word for it. Do they think we will not open the Bible and read it for ourselves? 


This Pastor says he's not adding works to the Gospel, and that he's not talking about "perfection" but a "direction" in your life. Then he uses this verse - with is about FALSE PROPHETS not "False Believers"... it's about false prophets or those who give false witness to what God has said and done, and/or what He will do - to test people's salvation. And in so doing leaves out Vs 18. I cannot speak for the man's intentions, but as much Lordship Salvation spinning and twisting of the Scriptures as I have read over the years even I can't imagine how you could make "A good tree cannot bare bad fruit" anything less than sinless perfection - IF it does mean as the Pastor teaches "how they live their lives." If a "good tree" cannot "bare bad fruit" and a "good tree" is a "true Christ follower" (a true Christian in the Pastor's thinking) and bad fruit is sin - then the true Christian cannot sin. Of course I do not believe this for a second, and even Lordship Salvation proponents can't sell this to their people. So they are left with having to skip some verses and heavily interpret others. 

He’s talking about at a future time at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but the one who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven. On that day, on Judgment Day, On that day many.  It’s just got to break your heart.  Many…  will say to me Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name and do many might works in Your Name?

OK as some who have listened to the sermon and emailed me know, I have decided to allow this man grace for getting a few things mixed up... because I can't honestly say that his slip ups were intentional. However, it is completely unthinkable that a trained, mature, Pastor who dares to teach God's Word would confuse the Judgment Seat of Christ with the Great White Throne Judgment.  Here's some more thoughts on this subject. Check out 1Cor 3:10-15 for a bit about the Judgment Seat of Christ. Notice that it does not AT ALL match what the Pastor taught. What's more it speaks of what those Christians who pervert the Gospel of Christ can expect to receive for reward at Judgment.

Now here is how he explains to his audience what the Lord is teaching in Mat 7:21-23.

In other words – Did we not serve at Church? Were we not part of the team? Did we not give money? Did we not help out? Lord, Lord did we not profess to be a follower of yours? That’s what He’s saying. Lookit Jesus all these things I did. I believe in You. I’m believing in You. I believed in You my whole life. Look Jesus, look look look.

And what is His response to these many? Vs 23. “And I will declare to them – I never knew you. Depart from Me you workers of lawlessness.”

I ask you dear readers, I plead with you Pastor Millar's followers, to read Mat 7:21-23 and see that these people make ABSOLUTELY NO CLAIM TO FAITH WHATSOEVER. These people commend themselves to God based on their real submission to His Lordship (as even Pastor Millar explains later in his sermon), to their obedience to Him, to their good works, to what they would see, and the Pastor is telling you to use to evaluate your salvation on - FRUIT.

Look please I beg you! Then listen to the Pastor's mocking voice as he talks about how these people claimed to have believed in Jesus their whole lives. There will be a point at the end of his sermon where his sincerity becomes absolutely clear. However, this moment we are examining right now is shockingly cold.

Let me spell this out, though I know most everyone reading already gets it. These people in Mat 7:21-23 whom the Lord will cast into the Lake of Fire, thought they were truly His because they did good things. They did MIGHTY things. What have YOU done for the Lord that will give you assurance if these that prophesied, cast out demons  and did MIGHTY works in His Name would have had FALSE ASSURANCE because HE NEVER KNEW THEM. What must his audience have been thinking at that point? I'm not that good... I'm not saved. Where does that lead a person? We'll see in the next passage but consider "Unless you abide in Me, you can do nothing." He who thinks he's not saved, isn't going to be growing in Him.

Pastor Millar then goes on to say that when your salvation is real that God comes in and He begins to change you - and I have no argument with that. He does, but that will look differently in every Believer and is not an accurate indicator of Salvation.  He says that Col 1:21-23 is a good example of his view. 

He reads Col 1:21-22 and then he says, again starting out in a mocking tone;

"You're saying they're saved! They're reconciled! But you have to keep reading. Verse 23 you're reconciled if indeed you continue in the faith stable and steadfast. Not shifting from the hope of the Gospel. Now listen I'm not saying you're adding works to salvation. I'm not saying because you continue in the faith that makes you saved. No I'm saying you're really saved you will continue in the faith. (someone in the crowed says "amen" to this) You need to look at that. You need to examine that. You need to see if God has truly saved you, transformed you, if you are really born from above then you will conti...not perfectly, you'll stumble, you'll fall but there'll be some direction there. Or something.  (long silent pause) It's just very important that we understand..." 

Give 2Pet 1:5-11 a read. How does the fact that those who have had their sins cleansed can get so far off the mark that they forget about it fit with how the Pastor explains Col 1:23? It cannot fit with it. Peter says we must ADD to our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge self-control, and to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, to your brotherly kindness - love.

Peter shows us how to mature in the faith. The Pastor would have you believe that "saving faith" is a faith that contains these things, it changes you, makes you obey God, makes you persevere. But the Apostle Peter, who not only was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write these exact words, knew a thing or two about what it is like to get lost along "the Way." Peter says that we ADD these to our faith. Just like James explains in James 2, that works animate faith. Just like Paul explains that we are saved by Grace, through faith, apart from works - and we are are born in Christ to do good works. Our works add to our faith, not result from it, or are part of it.

If we don't add works, and maturity to our faith? Well we can get so lost as to forget that we were saved by Christ. Maturity is our responsibility. If we do these as Peter states then well have an abundant entrance into Heaven. We will receive much reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But if we do not? Well then though we have been saved, and will enter into Heaven as though by fire, we in this life can become blind to the point that we may even forget that our sins have been cleansed. 


In short, Pastor asked his audience what John 14:15 "really means." Well Peter gives a pretty good answer. If you love Him, which is to say you have added all maturity to your faith, then you will keep His commandments. Not just if you have saving faith, but if you have maturity. 


In fact; Col 1:23 is exactly like 1Cor 15:2 "if you hold fast that message I preached to you" the salvation is not conditioned on holding fast, but this is the same message that I told you before. In 1Cor 15:2 we read of this happening in Acts 18:8. They believed, or received, the Gospel and so they were baptized. 

Jumping ahead now, after Pastor Millar gives 5 specific questions to his audience by which he believes they can test the validity of their faith he tells them if they want more tests that they should read 1st John. He then reads 1Jn 5:13 in this way;

"I write these things to you who believe... (takes a pause and then continues with a tone of correction) 'profess to believe' (takes another pause) in the name of God. That you may know that you have eternal life."

The Pastor inserted his own words into Scripture at best. To me it sounds like he's correcting the thought. No Believer with a Bible should have stood for this at the time of the preaching. Back in our discussion of John 8 we saw that the Pastor, by his interpretation of the passage, had God the Holy Spirit saying that a group of people believed and God the Son saying that they didn't. As shockingly wrong of an interpretation as that was, at least that time God the Son was quoted as saying the ones who refused to believe in Him were sons of the devil. This time, in 1Jn 5:13, God the Holy Spirit says that they are believers, and addresses them as "My Little Children" 1Jn 2:1 Hardly the description you would expect God to use of those who are or may be "sons of the devil."

This may be a dramatic reason not to use the verse as the Pastor does, but it is not the most compelling.

The verse actually reads "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have Eternal Life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Several things stand out to me that show the Pastor's application of the verse is flawed. First of course, it's written to those who believe not to those who profess to believe, want to know if they believe, or may believe.. Or are thinking about believing... Second, his purpose in writing is that we may "know" we have Eternal Life. Not suspect that we have it based on a subjective test that will give different results depending on when you take it and what kind of mood you're in.  Third, it's written that we may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Which is of course related to 2Peter 1:5-11 again. Why is John writing to us? That our joy may be full. 1Jn 1:4 which it will be if we continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

In 1Jn 5:13 there are two instances of the word believe. The first is constructed as a Present Active Participle which is to say John wrote this to those who "are believing." The second is constructed as "may or may not continue to believe" Present Active Subjunctive. Those who really did believe (had saving faith) may or may not continue to believe.

It's written so that we may know, or perceive that we are saved. How do we know we're saved? Because; God is faithful and just! Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins! And not only our sins, but for the sins of the whole world! 1Jn 2:2 Notice that 1Jn 2:2 is the justification of 1Jn 2:1 that Jesus Christ is our advocate if we sin. He's paid it all is what John is telling us. The letter is written to new believers who just struggle, to maturing believers who are starting to overcome and to fully mature believers who are now "fathers" in the faith. The new believer, or the immature believer, who is struggling with sin does not need to doubt his salvation, he needs to be convinced of the sufficiency of Christ's payment at the Cross. In order to mature, to be sanctified, we must first come to the confidence that our sin is dealt with. So long as a child doubts his father is his dad he can never actually walk after him - or Him. Perhaps when Pastor was preaching on John 3:16, and John 3:36 (see Part 2) he should have also read John 3:18. Maybe when he gets to John 20:31 he will change his mind (or to put it biblically - repent). 

Find more about 1st John and assurance here and make sure you check out the resource that I link to here.

I know this article, and the others have been long. We're almost done though!

After what we've looked at so far in this part, it may be shocking for you to find out that Part 5 will start with me largely agreeing with Pastor Millar. We'll look at his suggested 5 questions for testing one's salvation, and another 2 that he adds after. We'll find out that he doesn't have a great deal of confidence in this test, and what his suggested solution or solutions are to those who "fail the test." There's also going to be a specific listening assignment because I want you all to hear Pastor Millar's sincerity, and what is missing from his sermon.

God willing Part 5 will be up by the weekend, and will include what I think the Bible has to say about all of this.

Part 5 (the conclusion) can be found here.