*UPDATE: This post is not intended to suggest that John MacArthur is not saved. I believe that he is, but this belief is based on other testimony than what he shares in the following quoted interview. This interview is obviously an incomplete testimony (for whatever reasons) but I'm interested in discussion about if this was the only testimony a person had - are they saved? Would you be concerned about their salvation? There are currently 25 comments below this article. I highly suggest reading the first few and then skipping to any past 25. As much of the middle discussion is about MacArthur.
Here's how Dr. John MacArthur describes his conversion, as detailed at his Grace To You website.
Here's part of the interview between Phil Johnson and John MacArthur.
PHIL: How old were you when you first recall sensing your need for Christ?
JOHN: Well I always believed the gospel. I don't ever...I don't ever remember a time when I didn't believe the gospel. I mean, it was so wonderfully modeled by my Mom and Dad, it was so consistent. They were exactly at home what they were in the church. And what my Dad was in the pulpit he was in the house. And Christ was always very wonderful to me and inviting to me. And my Mom and Dad lived out their Christian life before me. And so, I never rebelled against it. I always knew I needed Jesus to be my Savior.
But there was an incident when I was about nine or ten. I had gotten involved in some vandalism because some kids had kind of prompted me to do it. My Dad was actually preaching in another town and he took me with him for the week of evangelistic meetings and some kids vandalized a school. And they happened to be, one of them happened to be the pastor's kid and so he drags me along, you know, my Father takes me to spend the week with this pastor's family with him. Anyway, I get involved in this thing. And they did some stuff in the school and I came back and I was...I felt terrible and frightened by it. And I sat down on the steps with my Dad...as a result, I don't know...remember the exact time sequence, but I said, “You know, I think...I'm not a good boy and I need the Lord to forgive me.” And that was sort of an initial prompting. And I remember my Dad praying with me on the steps that the Lord would save me. There may have been other times that I brought it up, but that one stands out in my mind. And as to whether I was actually converted at that time, I don't know. Again, in the years following I never rebelled, I was always responsive to the things of Christ. But I don't know that they were really the dominant matters of my life and the priorities that early.
PHIL: So you're saying...are you saying it would be difficult for you to put your finger on when your conversion took place?
JOHN: Yeah. I've never been able to do that. And it doesn't bother me. I think I'm one of those kids...I was one of those kids that never rebelled and always believed. And so when God did His saving work in my heart, it was not discernable to me. I went away to high school and for all I knew, I loved Christ, I was part of the ministry of the church. I went away to college and I wanted to serve the Lord and honor the Lord. I was certainly immature. But at some point along the line, I really do believe there was a transformation in my heart, but I think it may have been to some degree imperceptible to me because I didn't ever have a rebellious time, I didn't ever revolt against, you know, the gospel or not believe. And I guess that's...in some ways that's a grace act on God's part. So that all that wonderful training found some level of fertile soil in my heart and none of it was wasted.It is entirely possible that a person can believe the Gospel at such a young age that they won't later remember the event, but I've never heard of it happening before. I'm not aware of this topic having been discussed at any of the blogs I frequent, or among my peers.
So what do you think? Can someone be saved and not remember how or when it happened? I don't think that 2 Peter 1:9 applies here but if you want to include it in your discussion please feel free.
34 comments:
Great topic!
I'm another one. I accepted the Lord at a very young age (7-8, I think), and don't remember the exact event. But I do trust Jesus and his finished work on the cross for my salvation.
BTW, not sure how the 2 Peter passage applies. It's contrasting spiritual growth/maturity, with a deficient view of Jesus' saving work. I don't have a deficient view of salvation. I just don't recall my personal salvation event.
God Bless.
Bob
Hi All, I just realized I didn't put a title on this post!
LOL....
Kev
My conversion -
At a very young age I was told about God, pre-school.
Grade 2 I knew I was a sinner and confessed my sin to God and asked Him to save me. - YET I did not then know (to the best of my current knowledge) that my sin was paid for at the Cross.
God kept hounding me as I grew up.
From 1987 -1989 a dear Brother in the Lord engaged in conversations with me constantly - arguing the concept of God, but never quite getting to the Gospel.
Late summer early fall 1989 I was brought to a production of "Heaven's Gates & Hells Flames" at which I followed along with the Pastor's prayer and had a very emotional response. I still don't think I knew that Jesus Christ had paid for my sins at the Cross.
In 2005 with my life in tatters I needed to know if God is real or not. I devoured the Scriptures and found out that Jesus Christ had in fact paid for my sins.
I was saved at that point beyond a doubt.
Kev
I heard the gospel for the first time at age 11. In that interview I learned that I was a sinner and my sin separated me from God. I also learned that Jesus died on the cross to reconcile me to God and I could have a relationship with Him through Christ's death on the cross. I accepted His death in my place and trusted that this was what God wanted me to do. (This is the short version.) A few years later I learned that having a personal relationship with God through Jesus' death on the cross meant I got to go to heaven when I die. :)
JanH
Your testimony is wonderful! The person who witnessed to you truly put reconciliation with God in the rightful position. The benefits were not the motivation, but the reconciliation!!
There is a logical fallacy about being told to believe something because of the negative results of not believing. I think this same fallacy applies to believing something for the good results.
The thing is either true or it is not true - no matter what the results are.
The Gospel is true and I love that it was presented to you as such!
Kev
Kev-
Looking at your testimony again, I see that the thing that made the difference for you was that awareness/belief/certainty that Jesus paid for your sins. You knew you were a sinner under judgment and cried out to God to save you prior to that, but it seems you did not get the basis on which He would do so. And it was when you got the basis that you were saved. It was that sort of "Oh!" moment that you appeal to as the point of your salvation. I think that makes good sense.
I see something similar in Bobfromchicago's testimony and mine as well. Even though Bob does not have a specific recollection of his salvation experience, he knows Jesus died for him and trusts Him on that basis. He didn't hem and haw around it like MacArthur did. As a matter of fact, MacArthur never did get to Christ crucified for him, did he? I would like to think he has done so on other occasions, but I wonder why that is not what he defaults to, like Bob did?
I'm having some trouble with that. I don't get that. I really don't. I do believe MacArthur is saved. But I am bothered that Jesus' payment for his sins on Calvary was not what MacArthur defaulted to, as we did.
In fact, if someone ever happens to ask me how I know I will go to heaven when I die, Jesus on the cross is the thing that pops instantly into my mind. It is also the thing that settled the challenge that, when I was a young Christian, would periodically enter my mind (maybe from the enemy) whether I was sure I would go to heaven when I die. The question would bother me and make me afraid and I would anxiously root around in my mind for something about myself on which I could base assurance. Of course I came up with nothing, but then the image of Jesus on the cross would pop into my head and all the fear would disappear as I would again see that HE is why I would go to heaven. This didn't happen often, but I do remember it happening once or twice.
Yep. Christ crucified is home base.
JanH
Hi Jan,
As we were emailing about this topic in days previous, your note here is why for the first time since I've known of MacArthur reading his testimony gave me reason to doubt (or potentially doubt) his salvation.
In fact, if someone ever happens to ask me how I know I will go to heaven when I die, Jesus on the cross is the thing that pops instantly into my mind. It is also the thing that settled the challenge that, when I was a young Christian, would periodically enter my mind (maybe from the enemy) whether I was sure I would go to heaven when I die.
EXACTLY.
This is why I struggle with people who look for assurance outside of the Cross.
What is your faith in?
In a private email exchange between Pastor Millar and myself around Mid August 2010(Contrary to his statment that I had never approached him on the topic...) I told him the issue was not Jesus' Lordship - as He is clearly Lord, but rather what we put our faith in.
Is our faith in Reformation or in Propitiation?
Am I satisfied with the Cross as my assurance or do I need something else?
I truly believe it is a fear to whole heartedly put your faith in Christ's payment for our sins ALONE that is behind all these "tests of salvation" that we see in the Lordship Salvation camp.
I find MacArthur's testimony disturbing on a number of points.. but mostly because not only does he not know when he was saved - he doesn't know WHY he was saved.
This of course makes me understand his motivation for preaching through Mathew for 8 years - in search of what the Gospel truly is (his own explination from The Gospel According to Jesus).
It's disturbing. How do I know I'm saved? I'll give the same answer I gave in my first book - Because Jesus Christ, the spotless Lamb of God died on the cross for my sins in accordance with the Scriptures, was buried and raised again on the third day according to the scriptures! Why am I saved? Because His payment was accepted on my behalf. CASE CLOSED.
Who can argue that this is not the very definition of "faith"?
Kev
but mostly because not only does he not know when he was saved - he doesn't know WHY he was saved.
I always knew I needed Jesus to be my Savior.
and
I'm not a good boy and I need the Lord to forgive me
But there was an incident when I was about nine or ten.
It's disturbing. How do I know I'm saved?
CASE CLOSED.
This makes it sound like the question was posed to John and he failed to answer it correctly when in fairness he never said he didnt know IF he was saved but wasnt sure of the exact day :)
Hi Blessed,
This makes it sound like the question was posed to John and he failed to answer it correctly when in fairness he never said he didnt know IF he was saved but wasnt sure of the exact day :)
"the exact day"? He can't even pick the "exact decade"...
That's the point of this thread - can you really not know when you were saved - at least the season and circumstances that lead to it?
Kev
didnt he say that he was very young and mentions the age 9 or 10 as when he realized that he was a sinner and needed a savior? Like bobfromchicago? 7 or 8 and doesnt remember the exact event?? Can you believe on the Lord Jesus when you are that young and have a testimony like John and Bob? They would both tell you that Jesus died for them and paid for their sins so YES, they are saved? Arent they?
didnt he say that he was very young and mentions the age 9 or 10 as when he realized that he was a sinner and needed a savior?
He says he doesn't know if he was converted at that time. He calls that incident an "initial prompting." I would think, if he understood his need for salvation and trusted Christ to meet it at that time, then that was when he was saved. But he says he doesn't know if he was converted then.
JanH
Hi Blessed,
Same answer as Jan gave, but I'd like to answer this as well.
They would both tell you that Jesus died for them and paid for their sins so YES, they are saved? Arent they?
I've always thought that MacArthur is saved... but if he never actually heard and received the Gospel by simply trusting that Christ has truly paid the full price for him and that it is settled by that alone... then he's not saved.
LIkewise, if only he had a quasi-salvation experience (for lack of a better word) where he was just brought up in a good "God fearing" home (ala the those who feared God in Acts but were not believers) and then later was exposed to Lordship Salvation.. and that is the "gospel" he has received.. then I do not believe he would be saved.
I can't possibly know what he has or hasn't received. What I do know is the message he preaches is not the Gospel.
Kev
@ Kevl:
if he never actually heard and received the Gospel by simply trusting that Christ has truly paid the full price for him and that it is settled by that alone... then he's not saved.
Right: IF
I will go further and say that he needs to trust that the Jesus he is believing in was the Son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died for his sin and rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures.....but again, he did say that he heard the gospel growing up, the seed was planted and watered and he was convicted of sin and his need around the age of nine or ten (the prompting he mentioned could have been the convicting work of the Holy Spirit)......
@ Jan, But he says he doesn't know if he was converted then.
So he doesn't know if that is WHEN God saved him but its the time he remembers..does his confusion keep him from being saved? You are now saying that he must have known when it happened not know that it did happen.... He was nine...we could go way off to the mentally handicapped that call on the Lord and would have some confusion due their state but that would be going way off....unless he was asked why he is saved and answers that wrongly then do we not treat him as a beliver?
He calls that incident an "initial prompting."
You know, I think...I'm not a good boy and I need the Lord to forgive me.”And that was sort of an initial prompting...............
I think that the and means he is saying the realization of needing forgivness is what promted him calling out to the Lord in prayer.
I am saying this in love....we need to be very careful when judging someones salvation by a statement....Jan, I will use you for an example...I could say that you learned alot of things but you never said that you were convicted and convinced by the power of the Holy Spirit...just that you learned....like someone told you and you said ok....see how unfair that assumption would be...that since you didnt SAY that God had anything to do with it then you cant be saved....and you didnt mention exactly who this Jesus was that you were trusting....many cults say the right thing about the cross and are far from Christ...
I am just saying to be fair....based on his words in the article you cannot conclude that he is lost..
Hi Blessed,
None in this thread said that MacArthur is not saved... or even suggested that he isn't.
I said that this testimony gave me reason to doubt - and it does.... his own confession at other times that Jesus has died for his sins gives me reason to believe that he is saved.
I think you're making something out of what I wrote - and more so out of what Jan wrote than is there.
Why don't we discuss the topic instead of whether MacArthur is saved or not?
I really don't care about all the ways you could interpret what MacArthur said into some vague confirmation that he was saved... this interview is hardly something worthy of that sort of examination.
The topic is - can you be saved and not know how when or why?
Kev
I am sorry for commenting on the comments, I thought that was ok....
as a reader I assure you that from reading the comments it could be justifiably assumed that you now would doubt his salvation bc he didnt know the time.... even if thats not what you meant to do that is the way it comes across.....just the fact that you use someones' testimony as an example of "can you be saved if this is your testimony" will cast doubt on that testimony....thats all I am saying....I know a few people that were raised in Christian homes and believe they were saved at a very young age and would be much like Macarthur in not knowing exactly what age God saved them....in your comment (I think the 13th one posted) you gave legit reasons to doubt salvation.....I wouldn't think not knowing the exact age/date would cause doubt if there are reasons why (young (like Bob), or mentally challenged).....I am pretty sure you need to know why....can you give your testimony and leave out things that are important? Yep, as long as they are true in your life....
So he doesn't know if that is WHEN God saved him but its the time he remembers..does his confusion keep him from being saved?
Blessed-
Did you read any of my previous comments in this thread? Because I have said at least twice that I believe MacArthur is saved.
JanH
Hi Blessed,
I've asked you before if you were being intentionally hard to get along with and you assured me that you were not.
Why do I seemingly have to repeat everything in an article you respond to in the comments? If I'm going to have say the same things to you repeatedly then please limit your questions to things that matter.
As i have written elsewhere in this comment thread - but perhaps even more clearly.... if this testimony were all we had then I would not believe, based on this testimony alone, that he is saved.....
Can we drop this silliness now?
Kev
Commenting on comments is perfectly fine - when a secondary topic takes over from the main topic (especially when it has been well and fully answered/discussed) then I reserve the right to return the conversation to what had been intended in the first place.
Kev
Blessed said that someone can talk about their testimony while leaving details out.
I think that is well demonstrated in this thread. Those who have shared their conversion testimonies have left a lot out.
However what hasn't been left out of THESE stories at least is the propitiation of God.
Either here or on the James 2 from the Text article Blessed talked about how a simple profession of faith isn't enough (by itself) to see someone as saved.
The LS proponents often talk about how remembering a time when you said a prayer... walked down a isle...raised a hand.. signed your bible with a date... any of these types of things is not enough to give you assurance.
I agree!
We are saved by Grace through FAITH, not a profession... not raising a hand or praying after someone.
So, right or wrong, I have trouble accepting the testimony of someone who doesn't include the realization that they were a sinner under God's holy judgment and finding that judgment satisfied by Jesus at the Cross.
I had been a bad boy and needed God to forgive me? I'm not sure this rises to the level of the Gospel.. maybe it does? What do you think? We don't hear that God did forgive him in this testimony, we only hear unsurity.
Other testimonies where people don't even know the season they were saved in - can you accept such a testimony?
More importantly how can you help that person?
Kev
@ Jan
Yes, I read what you said, I was pointing out what was implied by other statements you made especially the couple with BUT in them......the BUT articles are still fresh in my mind J
@ Kev
I thought I was very clear on things I was questioning and they were not things stated in the article...they were things that were said in the comments so I am not sure what you are repeating for me....(I even copied and pasted to be sure I didn’t misquote)... You held up this mans testimony for scrutiny and judgment (you and Jan were the first to discuss his personal testimony and not people in general) and then when your own comments are scrutinized and questioned then you say this:
None in this thread said that MacArthur is not saved... or even suggested that he isn't.
AFTER saying this:
I said that this testimony gave me reason to doubt - and it does....
So, no you didn’t call him lost, you alluded to and casted doubt on his salvation or lack thereof………now that I think about it, the last few posts you did were picking apart things that people have said…….and pointing out things that they didn’t exactly say but alluded to………
I looked over the comments I posted and as soon as you asked me to get off Macarthur I did…the only reason to bring him into it was bc you used his testimony and thereby casted doubt on others with a similar testimony…..
I apologized in my last comment for addressing J Mac specifically instead of people with a testimony like his in general….I thought you used his testimony and commented on his specific testimony bc you wanted to discuss it…… I answered the question you asked……I apologize again.
I appreciate the time you have given me in answering my questions about the texts you have discussed. I don’t know the rules of this game….talk about the post, not the person in the post, talk about what is said not alluded to unless it’s the topic of the post…I disagree so I am hard to get along with….I will just refrain from commenting further so I am not being seen as contentious….I only said what I said in love and concern. Thank you again for the time you have taken with my questions.
@ Jan
Yes, I read what you said, I was pointing out what was implied by other statements you made especially the couple with BUT in them......the BUT articles are still fresh in my mind J
@ Kev
I thought I was very clear on things I was questioning and they were not things stated in the article...they were things that were said in the comments so I am not sure what you are repeating for me....(I even copied and pasted to be sure I didn’t misquote)... You held up this mans testimony for scrutiny and judgment (you and Jan were the first to discuss his personal testimony and not people in general) and then when your own comments are scrutinized and questioned then you say this:
None in this thread said that MacArthur is not saved... or even suggested that he isn't.
AFTER saying this:
I said that this testimony gave me reason to doubt - and it does....
So, no you didn’t call him lost, you alluded to and casted doubt on his salvation or lack thereof………now that I think about it, the last few posts you did were picking apart things that people have said…….and pointing out things that they didn’t exactly say but alluded to………
I looked over the comments I posted and as soon as you asked me to get off Macarthur I did…the only reason to bring him into it was bc you used his testimony and thereby casted doubt on others with a similar testimony…..
I apologized in my last comment for addressing J Mac specifically instead of people with a testimony like his in general….I thought you used his testimony and commented on his specific testimony bc you wanted to discuss it…… I answered the question you asked……I apologize again.
I appreciate the time you have given me in answering my questions about the texts you have discussed. I don’t know the rules of this game….talk about the post, not the person in the post, talk about what is said not alluded to unless it’s the topic of the post…I disagree so I am hard to get along with….I will just refrain from commenting further so I am not being seen as contentious….I only said what I said in love and concern. Thank you again for the time you have taken with my questions.
(sorry if this is on here twice...not sure what happened to the last one)
What I mean by repeating myself is this -
If all we had was this testimony from MacArthur I would doubt his salvation.
Can I be clearer? I think this is the fourth time I've said this here....
The rules? I have tried to answer your concerns about my concern for this testimony of his repeatedly... I don't know how to be clearer for you.
I also don't know why it matters. MacArthur would tell you that I am unsaved....
In fact the whole LS movement enthusiastically declares people as unsaved though they believe as a matter of common practice.
Kev
Blessed-
I am not going to go any further with this than this last comment. I am going to clear up the point I was making in my response to your comment. You said:
didnt he say that he was very young and mentions the age 9 or 10 as when he realized that he was a sinner and needed a savior? Like bobfromchicago? 7 or 8 and doesnt remember the exact event?? Can you believe on the Lord Jesus when you are that young and have a testimony like John and Bob? They would both tell you that Jesus died for them and paid for their sins so YES, they are saved? Arent they?
I took from that that you were not clear that MacArthur himself held that time to be in doubt. So I said:
[You] didnt he say that he was very young and mentions the age 9 or 10 as when he realized that he was a sinner and needed a savior?
[Me] He says he doesn't know if he was converted at that time. He calls that incident an "initial prompting." I would think, if he understood his need for salvation and trusted Christ to meet it at that time, then that was when he was saved. But he says he doesn't know if he was converted then.
JanH
That is why I wrote that comment. Not to cast any doubt on whether or not he is saved. I wanted you to be clear on what HE said himself because it seems that you took the liberty of deciding he was saved at that time, even though he does not say so himself.
The tremendous irony here is that while I cannot say so with certainty- because MacArthur does not allow me to- I think (along with you, apparently) it is most likely, given the information we have, that it was at this time that MacArthur was saved.
From your remark:
didnt he say that he was very young and mentions the age 9 or 10 as when he realized that he was a sinner and needed a savior?
you imply that you also feel there is a good chance MacArthur was saved at this time. So you and I agree (I take it) this is a likely time for MacArthur's salvation.
It is MacArthur who feels this might not be the case. So the "but" that causes doubt is not my "but." It is MacArthur's "but." It is his because he says he doesn't know if he was converted then. I also do not know if he was converted then but I think it is highly likely. So there is a different "but" for you from me.
What is certain is that he IS saved. I don't believe ANY of us, MacArthur included, think he is not.
Because he is the one who does not know if he was converted at that time, any qualm you have over the "but" and the question of this time being the time MacArthur was saved must be directed at him, not me.
JanH
All,
In a private email discussion between Jan and myself about this topic prior to the article being posted she was very uncomfortable with any question about MacArthur's salvation.
I did not foresee the controversy... she did.
My intent was not to examine MacArthur's salvation - how could I??? but to discuss this strange concept of not knowing when someone's salvation may have actually happened?
I really thought we could discuss this without it spiraling into accusation.
My fault - NOT Jan's. I responded to her comment with my own thoughts and she was drawn into that conversation. MY fault. NOT hers.
Kev
Oh, it isn't your fault, Kev.
I jumped in because I saw Blessed drawing conclusions from MacArthur's testimony that he didn't say (that he was saved at age 10 or so) which wasn't going to advance the conversation (IMO). I didn't have to say anything. I got myself involved. :(
But I think maybe you should disallow discussion of WHETHER he is saved. Or edit the post and add a disclaimer or something so people don't get the wrong idea.
I do think the topic is interesting. I like to hear other people's testimonies.
And I have my own ideas about why MacArthur framed his testimony the way he did that have nothing to do with whether or not he is saved. I believe it all goes back to TULIP, LS, and the sovereignty of God in salvation as held by the Reformed.
JanH
Good suggestion Jan - done.
Kev
I like bobfromchicago's testimony in that it mirrors mine in many ways. I really have a hard time pinpointing the exact time as well. I do remember the events surrounding the time that I realized I was a lost sinner for sure & that Jesus was the Savior. Kind of a long story, won't go into it here, but, I know now beyond the shadow of a doubt that all my sins were paid for by my wonderful Savior Jesus Christ on Calvary 2000 years ago & trust Him alone as my Savior. Thanks bro. Kev for this opportunity to praise Him openly once again!
"Well I always believed the gospel. I don't ever...I don't ever remember a time when I didn't believe the gospel. I mean, it was so wonderfully modeled by my Mom and Dad, it was so consistent."
How exactly does one 'model' the gospel?
(Q#1)If you're a Christian; When were you saved?
(A)5 years ago
(Q#2)Why?
(A) I was saved from God, by God for God.
(Q#3)Do you know the date?
(A) See above answer #1.
(Q#4)The time?
(A)Not sure about this question. Are you wanting to know clock time or calendar? If calendar time see answer to #1.
(Q#5)Do you know the year?
(A)Again see answer to #1
(Q#6)What was going on?
(A) Rebellion
(Q#7)Who told you about Christ?
(A) Many
(Q#8)What were you told about Him?
(A) God sent His Son to save enemy rebel sinners from His fierce and holy wrath, and all who put their faith in Christ will receive not only the forgiveness of sin (a cancellation of their severe debt to God), but the very righteousness of Christ (all Christ achieved by His sinless life and fulfillment of every demand of the law) transferred to the believer’s account as a free gift of grace (Rom. 5:17).
Nolan
That's a wonderful testimony David!
Hi Nolan. I didn't really mean for you to answer each of those questions - but thanks! :)
Kev
This is a very interesting topic. I came to believe at 26 years of age and was well aware by the conviction of the Holy Spirit of my need for Jesus, and was so glad to receive Him.
I think of my children aged 8 and 6 who both believe that Jesus died for their sins, but I'm not entirely sure they get what it means to be a sinner separated from God. I do trust that the childlike faith they have now, will by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and an encountering of the grace of God in Christ Jesus, will become a reality that they will forever remember. Perhaps not the exact time and place, but that they would remember that kind of encounter with Jesus.
Hi Mark,
Welcome, and thanks for your comment! Your comments about your children are seasoned with trust in the Lord - lovely!!
I wonder if my own questions about less detailed conversion stories are more an issue of my perspective of the person's story than they a result of non-conversions being talked about. You know what I mean?
You know your children, and you know the Lord - so you have an up close view (which can also make it harder to see truth depending on a few factors) and you can look at their confessions of faith with faith in them and the Lord.
Interesting - I'm barely making sense here I know but there's something interesting about this.
Kev
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