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Straight up, I don't think that sort of statement is true. I think it has elements of truth, but is misleading and damaging to the Christian witness of Christ. I believe it is hurtful to the person it is told to.
But DOES God love sinners? I want to chat with you about this question. I have some ideas, I have some things that I know to be true, and I have some opinions. What I don't have is a solid Biblical answer that answers not just the question - but the intent of the question. Well maybe I do.. but I'm not confident enough in it that I would preach the point.
This conversation, that I'd like to have with you-all, stems from a conversation I had with my Pastor and one reader of this blog a few Saturday's back as we escaped the rain in a Tim Horton's coffee shop. We were speaking about the Gospel and various related topics which in particular included disagreement about God's love, or hate, for sinners.
I took the position that God hates sinners, and used Ps 5:5 as my proof-text (I use this term intentionally, most readers of this blog will realize the distaste I have for such practice). I didn't intend it as a proof-text, but it sort of turned out that way. My Pastor and the other Brother took the position that God loves sinners. We ended up agreeing that the subject was distracting from the thrust of the conversation and I promised to prepare an argument for my position and provide it to my Pastor.
I have done no small amount of thinking about this topic since then. I have not dug into the Scriptures deeply enough to believe I have a strong answer, but here is where my head is at right now.
Romans 5 is an amazing chapter (are there any which are not????) and Romans 5:8 is most interesting for our discussion. Does this mean God loved us, or He demonstrated His love before us as available to us? I really could go either way, but I have not done due diligence with the Greek yet.
John 3:16 says that God loved the world (the kosmos or all creation) in this way, that He gave His only begotten Son....
1Jn 2:2 says this act was for the sins of the whole world (the kosmos or all creation).
1Jn 4:10 seals the deal on if God loves sinners or not in my view.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His son to be the propitiation for our sins.
To my understanding, this verse coupled with Rom 5, 1Jn 2:2 and John 3:16 clearly means that God does in fact love sinners.
However, this does not erase how God says that He hates sinners in many places Psalm 5:5 being just one example. Nor does it erase how we read over and over about God's wrath against sinners.
I believe that God has a dual love and hate for sinners. His wrath abides on them, but He loves them as well, and salvation is available to any who access it through faith in Christ.
So tell me what you think, please.
5 comments:
You tell me who among this world that "God so loved" isn't a sinner and you will have your answer. Those who God hates are not sinners, but are those who refuse to see themselves as such.
Not sure if you have ever heard this before, but "A sinner is a blessed thing, the Lord hath made him so".
It is not referring to God as the author of the man's sin, what it is referring to is God being the author of the man's ability to see himself as such a thing.
A link for consideration
http://www.tpgh.org/GFG.htm
Hey Look Up,
You said
Those who God hates are not sinners, but are those who refuse to see themselves as such.
That IS what the whole of Psalm 5 seems to indicate. I was wondering if anyone else would say that. It is this reason that I base my (new) view of using Psalm 5:5 alone as Proof-Texting.
Interesting stuff.
Kev
Look Up wrote:
Kev Post or delete if you want, but I wrote this on the subject which was my attempt to lay out the differences between love and hate. "Biblical love is not the gushy indescribable feeling made popular by the hippy generation, but is a firm unwavering decision to put self last. This is what Christ did when He left His throne in Glory to atone for the sins of those who would receive Him as Saviour. He put our need for a Saviour above Himself, how can it be that we will not return this love to Him? The only reason possible is our very depravity!"
I have removed the link because of some content that I believe is unhelpful.
However there is much in the link of value. Here are some quotes which I have hastily pulled out of his article. I think they are insightful and helpful.
Let's start with the following working definitions:
Love-Putting the needs of another ahead of our own, or to prefer, motivated by desire, not duty nor obligation.
Hate- Putting our own needs ahead of another, or to prefer not. (In the context of love of God or love of the world, it merely means the loved one is the one which is the preferred object of your desire)
A newborn Christian may only put the things of the Lord slightly ahead of other things, and sometimes even mistakenly choose wrong (love in the bud), whereas a mature Christian has learned to give Christ pre-eminence in all things (love in the bloom).
These seemingly contradictory verses merely refer to the fact that God must have the pre-eminence over all other relations, not that we are actually to hate our families as the world defines it.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Rachel was loved more than Leah, and yet the LORD saw that Leah was hated. As you should see from the general tenor scripture, there is only one choice between love and hatred, no middle ground has been provided.
Gen 29:30-31 And he went in also unto Rachel , and he loved also Rachel more than Leah , and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
And finally, the command below to deny ourselves is merely an inferential command to love; which is to prefer others above ourselves, and to prefer Christ above all.
Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Biblical love is not the gushy indescribable feeling made popular by the hippy generation, but is a firm unwavering decision to put self last. This is what Christ did when He left His throne in Glory to atone for the sins of those who would receive Him as Saviour. He put our need for a Saviour above Himself, how can it be that we will not return this love to Him? The only reason possible is our very depravity!
Love as defined will be resident in the believer, but more importantly love for Christ will be the believer’s main interest, if it be not so in your case, go to Christ and ask Him to make it so.
I did not quote all of his article, but only that which I think helps define love and hate. Actually much of this work has been on my mind - and is of particluar help to this discussion.
Kev
Hey Look Up,
You said
It is not referring to God as the author of the man's sin, what it is referring to is God being the author of the man's ability to see himself as such a thing.
The convincing and convicting ministry of the Spirit is a blessed thing!!
Kev
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