This is a follow up to the post where I recounted a short story of service to my wife entitled Proof Of Trust? It was nothing big but it did point out, at least to some, that works are not proof of trust. The discussion that followed ended up with the subject of assurance and when someone "should" or "should not" have assurance of their Salvation.
The slipperiness of the doctrines of Lordship Salvation bugs me. With nothing clearly defined the person who is trying to prove the position is free to explain away everything and anything that disagrees with it and to change the focus of the conversation at any moment.
There is an immense amount of circular logic that flows through the arguments for Lordship Salvation. The shear amount of assumption they are based on makes it next to impossible to answer each point in a normal conversation. It's actually a bit like how an aggressive nation invades another country. They don't have to have the best soldiers, planes, tanks or ships.. all they need are a lot of them. Likewise, there is no argument for Lordship Salvation that stands the test of Scripture that I have ever heard. But when facing the mass attack of a bunch of the assumptions at once it's very hard to answer each point without writing a book. And that's a big reason why as we discuss the false message of Lordship Salvation we try to focus on "what a sinner must do to be saved." Not the things that ought to follow Salvation. And it is this what must be done to be saved that is at the heart of the perversion of the Gospel that is Lordship Salvation.
But this post is entitled "Proof Of Trust! Our Faith Confirmed." and so I've got to deal with assurance. What "proves" trust? How can we know we are saved? Do we know we're saved because we live different lives now? How different? Because we "hate" our sin? How much? Because we do good works? How many? What if we do sin and good works?
Thankfully my dear Pastor was preaching about Faith this past Sunday and he reminded me of Heb 4:16. A blessed definition of trust is found therein.Hebrews 4:15-16 NKJV
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
My Pastor's purpose was not to forward this discussion. He wasn't speaking about how to "know you trust" as the conversation with Lordship Salvation proponents often turns to. He was simply speaking about trust, actually he termed it "confidence" in the Lord. When he spoke verse 16 I remembered verse 15 and thanked the Lord for His own definition of trust. He is trustworthy, and so we trust Him and as we trust Him we have faith in Him.
The end result of these two verses is this "...that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." The end result is the Lord satisfies our need. This is the result of true faith. So let's examine THAT faith which leads to such a perfect result.
For understanding of the implications of Christ being our High Priest I suggest an in-depth study of Hebrews. I do not have the space, time or skill required to get into that subject in this topic, yet I do acknowledge that it relates.
Verse 15 speaks of the character and qualification of our High Priest. Verse 16 says that our actions are because of this character and qualification "therefore" and shows our trust as "coming boldly to the Throne of Grace."
Notice please, WHY we come boldly, confidently, in trust, because of Christ's character and qualifications. Not because of ours. We do not have confidence that leads to obtaining of Mercy and Grace because we have been changed but because He is Who He is and Has done what He has done, and so will do what He will do.
This is most important: Why should a Christian have assurance of their salvation? Because of Christ's character and qualification.
I've been asked many times... if a person is not doing good works, not going to church, not reading their bible, not giving, not this or not that.... How can they have assurance of their Salvation? Check the threads here at OMW over the last two months and count how many times that question has been asked. It's stunning.
A person can have assurance of their salvation if they can come trusting fully that the Gospel is true and that despite anything about themselves our High Priest's character led Him to do and complete what He was qualified to do on our behalf. 1 Cor 15:1-11 The Church of yesteryear used to sing to teach.. not just to entertain. I love the following hymn.
Rock Of Ages
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.
Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law's demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.
Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.
While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the Cross I cling.
The proof of trust is not how I have changed. The proof of trust is that I come to the Saviour in confidence. If I know the Gospel Truth of Who He is, what He has done and trust that He has done these things for me and is faithful to save me then I will be confident in Him. Not in me. That is trust. And that coming boldly to the Throne of Grace is the only proof of that trust.
May God bless the reading of His Holy Word, and the singing of man made words describing the truth of our condition.
41 comments:
Kev:
The second stanza of Rock of Ages is so timely for this discussion.
Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law's demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.
I use this in my polemic against Lordship's view of repentance. No amount of labor (promised or performed), zeal for service, or unending tears (sorrow) can atone for sin.
LM
Hey Lou,
I so love it! There is such depth. True dependence. It's beautiful. When we look at the Savior and ALL He's done and will do we must KNOW He is sufficient. That it truly is "finished".
I can't wait for your revision to come out. :)
I've had to put TGATJ for the last month due to many other more pressing tasks. I keep looking at it, knowing the day is quickly coming when I'm going to have to finish those last 10 pages and try to make sense out of all of my comments. :)
Bless you and thanks for the comment!
Kev
All,
Did a couple of corrections in the article... the motto at OMW is "Post fast and correct often!" lol :)
Kev
It is amazing the effect it has on the soul to focus on Christ. I have never found the least bit of strength or motivation when the song or sermon was directed toward me, "YOU must be like this, YOU must do that..." But tell me about Jesus- who He is, what He has done, my position in Him- now I am fed and edified.
JanH
At the risk of having my comment deleted, I want to point something out. You said above:
The proof of trust is that I come to the Savior in confidence
Here’s what you’re basically saying kev:
Q. What is the proof that a person trusts Christ?
A. That he trusts Christ
This is circular logic, and it isn’t proof (evidence) at all. It’s like saying: What is the proof that a person loves? That they love.
Not proof. A person can “say” that they love someone, but their “confession” of love means nothing if they then ignore, mistreat or abuse the person. They may THINK they love this person, but if they truly do, it will be evidenced by what they say and do. And Scripture is clear that it’s the same with faith in Christ and our growing love for God.
Suppose you and your wife had to be separated for a period of 6 months, and during that time you wrote to her, called her, prayed for her, talked well about her to your friends. These actions would be “evidence” of your love for her. But suppose, on the other hand, she never wrote to you (didn’t even bother opening your letters), never called or talked about you, and in-fact her friends never even knew you were away, and when you did get a hold of her she acted bored and wanted to get off the phone. I don’t think anyone would argue that the evidence was strongly in favor of her not loving you. The proof is in the puddin’ as they say.
Btw: I agree with your following statement:
Why should a Christian have assurance of their salvation? Because of Christ's character and qualification.
Absolutely true too.
Bridget
Hi All,
Sorry for the lack of response from me. TCC Radio has been doing a series on Abortion that has required my full attention.
Kev
Jan,
Definitely agree. How can I be "more" Christian? I can't. Let me die and Christ live!
Kev
Bridget,
I've only got just a minute, have not read the rest of your post - but I will.
You said At the risk of having my comment deleted, I want to point something out. You said above:
The proof of trust is that I come to the Savior in confidence
Here’s what you’re basically saying kev:
Q. What is the proof that a person trusts Christ?
A. That he trusts Christ
This is circular logic, and it isn’t proof (evidence) at all. It’s like saying: What is the proof that a person loves? That they love.
Why would I delete this? You indite yourself. Read what you wrote again....
I did not say that the proof of trust is that you trust. However, your interpretation of what I wrote just reinforces that coming before the Lord in confidence is clearly an act that can only be done by someone who trusts.
Especially given the context of Verse 15 before it. This is not a person coming before the Lord because he knows he is good, or has become more good, or is better now, or is growing... he is confident that despite all his failings he can trust God and come before Him confidently.
Kev
Bridget,
Just took a moment to read the rest of your post.
Not proof. A person can “say” that they love someone, but their “confession” of love means nothing if they then ignore, mistreat or abuse the person. They may THINK they love this person, but if they truly do, it will be evidenced by what they say and do. And Scripture is clear that it’s the same with faith in Christ and our growing love for God.
We are not saved because of devotion or love. Christians are saved because they have placed their faith in Christ. They trust Him.
I don't know where you get all this "they may think" stuff... these issues are not brought up in Scripture. These questions are never asked in Scripture. These are man made questions that bring the conversation away from the simple truth of Scripture. That if you believe the Gospel you are saved. 1 Cor 15:1-11
Kev
Why would I delete this? You indite yourself.
How did I indict myself?
I did not say that the proof of trust is that you trust.
You said, "The proof of trust is that I come to the Savior in confidence".To “come to the Savior in confidence” is simply another way of saying to trust in the Savior, so you really are using circular logic.
This is not a person coming before the Lord because he knows he is goodor has become more good,or is better now, or is growing... he is confident that despite all his failings he can trust God and come before Him confidently.
When have I ever said that people come to the Lord because they know they are good or are growing or any of the other things you said kev? Not ever.
We are not saved because of devotion or love. Christians are saved because they have placed their faith in Christ. They trust Him.
I have never implied anything of the sort, kev. Going all the way back to our first conversations, you have consistently implied that I’ve said things that I’ve never said.
I don't know where you get all this "they may think" stuff... these issues are not brought up in Scripture.
I get all this “may think” stuff from the Bible. Matt 7 shows that many people may think they’re saved when they’re not, as do many parables (ten virgins, parable of the talents, the final judgment, etc), not to mention all the warnings about “being deceived” throughout the whole NT. And 1 John says (after 5 chapters of showing what a genuine believer looks like and what an unbeliever looks like) exactly WHY this letter was written: that you may know you have eternal life.
This clearly indicates that there are signs that indicate you are saved and signs that indicate you are not.
You said, "The proof of trust is that I come to the Savior in confidence".To “come to the Savior in confidence” is simply another way of saying to trust in the Savior, so you really are using circular logic.
Coming in trust. Not trusting.
See doing something in trust is the proof of Trust. You indite yourself because you refuse to read what I wrote and instead respond to what you think I wrote.
When have I ever said that people come to the Lord because they know they are good or are growing or any of the other things you said kev? Not ever.
YOu say a person can not come unless they are regenerated because they are exceedingly evil and can do no good thing until they are regenerated. You say that someone is regenerated and then do the natural thing for them, come to the Lord. You say this over and over and over again. Someone is evil until they are made good by God then they do the good thing of repenting and coming to God. You say this continously.
What's more you constantly say the only assurance one can have of their salvation is their current state- are they being good or not. So people can only come to God if they are good, and can only be saved "in the end" if they have remained good until the end.
These are your lines... any can check the several threads here you have written in.
We are not saved because of devotion or love. Christians are saved because they have placed their faith in Christ. They trust Him.
I have never implied anything of the sort, kev. Going all the way back to our first conversations, you have consistently implied that I’ve said things that I’ve never said.
Do you not say that one must submit to Christ's Lordship, must agree to be a Disciple in order to be saved? Do you not say this always? Then you say we are saved by devotion.
Do you not say that "if we love God we will obey Him and so if we do not obey we have no assurance of Salvation"? Are these not your words and thoughts you oft express? Then you say we are saved through our love.
I don't know where you get all this "they may think" stuff... these issues are not brought up in Scripture.
I get all this “may think” stuff from the Bible. Matt 7 shows that many people may think they’re saved when they’re not, as do many parables (ten virgins, parable of the talents, the final judgment, etc), not to mention all the warnings about “being deceived” throughout the whole NT. And 1 John says (after 5 chapters of showing what a genuine believer looks like and what an unbeliever looks like) exactly WHY this letter was written: that you may know you have eternal life.
This clearly indicates that there are signs that indicate you are saved and signs that indicate you are not.
1 John states that he writes that we might know we have Eternal Life. Not know if we have Eternal Life. This he states in 1 John 5:13
But he also states it in 1 John 2:12, to the young ones who are just saved and not yet seeing victory. He gives them assurance.
I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
He is not writing a test. He is writing assurance. Over and over again he tells us this. That you would take the most tender letter there is in the Bible to the Church and turn it in to a fearful test speaks volumes to me.
Build your case. Show me what are the tests of Christianity in 1 John are or be gone. You say there is a test. Let's take it and see if we pass shall we? Do you dare?
Be pre-warned, and most fairly. I will take Scripture for exactly what it says word for word. Let's take the test and let lying mouths be stopped.
Kev
Coming in trust. Not trusting.
See doing something in trust is the proof of Trust.
I’m not sure if I know what you mean by this “coming in trust, not trusting”. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that the proof of our trust in Christ is that we come to Him in trust or “follow Him”. Kind of like the “frozen lake” example. I can believe or trust that the frozen lake will hold my weight, but only if I walk out on the lake will my trust be proven. Is that right?
This is not a person coming before the Lord because he knows he is good,
YOu say a person can not come unless they are regenerated because they are exceedingly evil and can do no good thing until they are regenerated.
Can I ask why you make the leap that if a person comes to repentance and faith by God’s grace that this means they come because they know they are good? I just can’t get over the irony of these accusations. The fact that they AREN’T good is the whole reason that His grace must be involved. It is actually you, who are saying that man comes because he is good. He had a good inclination to repent and believe the gospel (for whatever reason).
What's more you constantly say the only assurance one can have of their salvation is their current state- are they being good or not. So people can only come to God if they are good, and can only be saved "in the end" if they have remained good until the end.
I have never said that the only assurance one can have of their salvation is their current state- are they being good or not. Not ever. That is a complete twisting of what I’ve said. And I’ve also never said a person can only be saved in the end if they have “remained good” until the end. You are assuming that I’m saying that man has to be good because you see man’s will as supreme. In the same way that you believe man’s will decides his ultimate fate at conversion, you believe man’s will decides his ultimate fate in sanctification. Until you see all of salvation (conversion, justification, sanctification, glorification) as being of God’s grace, you will always have this wrong impression.
Do you not say that one must submit to Christ's Lordship, must agree to be a Disciple in order to be saved? Do you not say this always? Then you say we are saved by devotion.
Another example of how you view man's will as supreme. I believe that Scripture teaches that the very nature of repentance and faith is turning one’s allegiance from sin and idols to God, through faith in Christ, and I believe it is by God's grace that sinners do this, not by their autonomous will.
Do you not say that "if we love God we will obey Him and so if we do not obey we have no assurance of Salvation"? Are these not your words and thoughts you oft express? Then you say we are saved through our love.
And there it is again. All of your accusations have a thread of man's autonomous will running through them. The belief that this is something man does of his own will and strength.
“Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me, and he who loves me will be loved by the Father, and I too will love him and reveal myself to him.”- John 14:21
1 John states that he writes that we might know we have Eternal Life. Not know if we have Eternal Life. This he states in 1 John 5:13
If the “if” isn’t even a factor, then why write a whole letter to assure them of something that there is no chance they can be mistaken about? After all (according to your theory), if a person is trusting Christ, they KNOW they are trusting Christ. The whole book of First John makes no sense then.
John wrote this letter during a time when Gnostic heresy was influencing the Church. As I’m sure you know, the Gnostics believed that Christ had not come in the flesh, because they believed that the flesh is evil and spirit is good. They taught that salvation was for the soul only, so what they did in the body didn’t matter, and many were indulging in immorality, and this teaching was impacting the Church. This is the atmosphere in which John is writing, and he gives clear instruction and warning that a person cannot merely believe without also bearing the marks of this saving faith.
I'm willing if you are, to go through 1 John and take a look at the tests. Btw: I notice you deleted my other post. I take it you didn’t agree with the teachings of Toplady, writer of Rock of Ages.
Bridget
In a couple of weeks, I’m doing a Kay Arthur study on 1 John at church, which I’m really looking forward to, and I’m sure that I’ll be more informed after, but I’ve spent a lot of time in First John lately because of our recent discussion, and so I’m willing to go through it. In-fact, in my Bible, I’ve highlighted at least a dozen places where it is pointing out what a true believer looks like vs. what an unbeliever looks like. Here are just a few (all paranthetical comments are mine):
3:7-8 “Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous (believer). He who sins is of the devil (unbeliever), for the devil has sinned from the beginning.”
The NAS, ESV and others translate this, “whoever makes a practice of sinning” and John’s repeated use of the Greek present tense seems to bear this out, which would bring continuity to verses 7 and 8. In-fact, the KJV translates verse 7, “He that doeth righteousness” and verse 8, “He that committeth (doeth) sin.” The same Greek word:
ποιων verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
poieo poy-eh'-o: to make or do
1:6- “If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth (unbeliever). But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin (believer).
2:3-4- “And by this we know that we have come to know him, IF we keep his commandments (believer). Whoever says, ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him (unbeliever).”
2:10-11- Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling (believer). But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness (unbeliever).
2:15, 17- “If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (unbeliever). ..But whoever does the will of God abides forever (believer).
Bridget I'm going to ignore most of your post because I'm just not interested in word games. You want to talk about supremacy of human will or whatever.. find a thread somewhere about that.
A good "proof" of trust is acting in a way that requires trust. It doesn't meant that one must act to trust, it means if we trust, any proof of that trust will be an act or attitude of reliance. I can't believe I have had to spell this out so many times. If you think that making my arguments become sloppy because of frustration will prove your point you are dead wrong. The only thing that would prove is that I'd be poor at controlling my emotions when provoked.
Faith is not allegiance. Allegiance is not even proof of faith. Canada is allied with the USA as part of NATO and NORAD and many other trade and other agreements. That in no way implies that we trust each other. Each of these agreements come with checks and balances. Allegiance does not prove trust. You don't have to trust to be allied, and you don't have to be allied to trust.
You brought up John 14:21
He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.
Does this mean that only those who HAVE and KEEP His commandments are saved or will be saved?
Just like others quote other times when Jesus says if you love me you will obey my commandments you ignore what His commandments are. Jesus is not speaking of general obedience here. He's not saying those that love Him obey every word He tells them. John 14 repeats the concept several times. Want to know what Our Lord is telling us right there? Listen to Him.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words which I speak to you I do not speak from myself; but the Father who abides in me, he does the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe *me* that I am in the Father and the Father in me; but if not, believe me for the works' sake themselves.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works which I do shall he do also, and he shall do greater than these, because I go to the Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, this will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Then listen to Him repeat Himself
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
What is He talking about again?
Joh 14:20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him
The Lord never leaves what He commands undefined. It is never a general statement that can be perverted. The Lord God allows no man to put words in His mouth.
Joh 14:11a Believe *me* that I am in the Father and the Father in me;
Now to the end of your comment.
1 John states that he writes THAT we might know we have Eternal Life. Not know IF we have Eternal Life. This he states in 1 John 5:13
If the “if” isn’t even a factor, then why write a whole letter to assure them of something that there is no chance they can be mistaken about? After all (according to your theory), if a person is trusting Christ, they KNOW they are trusting Christ. The whole book of First John makes no sense then.
He's writing to assure them. These had doubts. But he assures. Not just your sins, but all the sins of all the people of the world have been paid for. In your faith you can be saved because everything has been paid for.
They know they have faith, that's John's leverage. They know in Whom they have believed. John is protecting them from the junk theology that would have them doubt their salvation because of sin. If any sins we have an Advocate in Heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. There is no fear of not being saved because of sin, there is assurance that we are saved because all sin was propitiated at the Cross. If we believe, if we come into agreement with God about our sin, He is JUST and FAITHFUL to forgive us our sin and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. He's just because it was all paid for, He's faithful because He is the one we have touched and experienced since the beginning and He has not changed.
John wrote this letter during a time when Gnostic heresy was influencing the Church............This is the atmosphere in which John is writing, and he gives clear instruction and warning that a person cannot merely believe without also bearing the marks of this saving faith.
John tells us himself the purposes for which he wrote the letter. Interestingly enough never once does he mention these...
And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth
That last one is fairly powerful isn't it?
1 John 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
He's clearly saying that he is not writing because they are not saved. He's writing for their confidence not to test them on their salvation.
Btw: I notice you deleted my other post. I take it you didn’t agree with the teachings of Toplady, writer of Rock of Ages.
Moderation at OMW
Kev
Bridget. You are not taking the test. How are you doing on each of these points. By this test are you saved?
I will answer these honestly, by your paradigm but as Scripture states them.
Kev
3:7-8 “Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous (believer). He who sins is of the devil (unbeliever), for the devil has sinned from the beginning.”
The NAS, ESV and others translate this, “whoever makes a practice of sinning” and John’s repeated use of the Greek present tense seems to bear this out, which would bring continuity to verses 7 and 8. In-fact, the KJV translates verse 7, “He that doeth righteousness” and verse 8, “He that committeth (doeth) sin.” The same Greek word:
ποιων verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
poieo poy-eh'-o: to make or do
Very interesting. Let's look at Young's Literal Translation of the entire portion you quote some of.
1Jn 3:1 See ye what love the Father hath given to us, that children of God we may be called; because of this the world doth not know us, because it did not know Him;
1Jn 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
1Jn 3:3 and every one who is having this hope on him, doth purify himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,
1Jn 3:5 and ye have known that he was manifested that our sins he may take away, and sin is not in him;
1Jn 3:6 every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous,
1Jn 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;
1Jn 3:9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
1Jn 3:10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil; every one who is not doing righteousness, is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother,
1Jn 3:11 because this is the message that ye did hear from the beginning, that we may love one another,
1Jn 3:12 not as Cain--of the evil one he was, and he did slay his brother, and wherefore did he slay him? because his works were evil, and those of his brother righteous.
The Creek doesn't speak of "practicing" it speaks of doing - in the here and now. It's not a statement of "do we make a practice of" it's a statement of "do we do"?
The fluffy way of interpreting this section of Scripture allows one who still sins to convince themselves that they actually practice righteousness more than they practice sin so they must be saved...
However, John is clear. If you are "doing the sin" you are of the Devil. When is the last time you sinned?
I spent some hours in what I know to be sin yesterday. Yet I devote much of my life to righteousness. By the standard set out in Scripture here.. if it is a test of my salvation I don't know how to call it. It says on one hand that he who is doing the righteousness is of God, but it says on the other that he who is doing the sin is of the Devil.
How did you fair in this test?
1:6- “If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth (unbeliever). But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin (believer).
Let us again look at the whole passage so that we take the full test, if it is in deed a test.
1Jn 1:5 And this is the message that we have heard from Him, and announce to you, that God is light, and darkness in Him is not at all;
1Jn 1:6 if we may say--`we have fellowship with Him,' and in the darkness may walk--we lie, and do not the truth;
1Jn 1:7 and if in the light we may walk, as He is in the light--we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son doth cleanse us from every sin;
1Jn 1:8 if we may say--`we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;
1Jn 1:9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;
1Jn 1:10 if we may say--`we have not sinned,' a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us.
What does it mean to "walk in the light as He is in the light"? I would suggest that it has something to do with 1 John 1:9 all things considered...
However.. I'm a bit confused by this test because this says if we say we have not sinned that the light is not in us.. but 1 John 3:9 says that the one born of God "can not" sin.
Again.. I've sinned.. I can't call it. U?
2:3-4- “And by this we know that we have come to know him, IF we keep his commandments (believer). Whoever says, ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him (unbeliever).”
You know the deal by now...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
1Jn 2:2 and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
1Jn 2:3 and in this we know that we have known him, if his commands we may keep;
1Jn 2:4 he who is saying, `I have known him,' and his command is not keeping, a liar he is, and in him the truth is not;
1Jn 2:5 and whoever may keep his word, truly in him the love of God hath been perfected; in this we know that in him we are.
1Jn 2:6 He who is saying in him he doth remain, ought according as he walked also himself so to walk.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, a new command I write not to you, but an old command, that ye had from the beginning--the old command is the word that ye heard from the beginning;
If he who breaks his commandments (sins) is not a believer then 1 John 2:1-2 doesn't make any sense. Unless you think it's optional for non-believers to sin.. "if" any sins we have an advocate... that messes with the rest of your professed theology so that cant' be what you mean...
Once again.. I've sinned since I've believed. On one hand I'm comforted that I have an Advocate who's paid the full price but if this is a test of my salvation.. since I've sinned (not obeyed) I must not be (by your theology) a believer...
Once more.. this test has left me with no clear answer. I can't call it. U?
Kev
2:10-11- Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling (believer). But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness (unbeliever).
1Jn 2:8 again, a new command I write to you, which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness doth pass away, and the true light doth now shine;
1Jn 2:9 he who is saying, in the light he is, and his brother is hating, in the darkness he is till now;
1Jn 2:10 he who is loving his brother, in the light he doth remain, and a stumbling-block in him there is not;
1Jn 2:11 and he who is hating his brother, in the darkness he is, and in the darkness he doth walk, and he hath not known whither he doth go, because the darkness did blind his eyes.
1Jn 2:12 I write to you, little children, because the sins have been forgiven you through his name;
1Jn 2:13 I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father:
1Jn 2:14 I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.
1Jn 2:15 Love not ye the world, nor the things in the world; if any one doth love the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
1Jn 2:16 because all that is in the world--the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of the life--is not of the Father, but of the world,
1Jn 2:17 and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain--to the age.
If ones hate (sin) declares him to be an unsaved person, the purposes declared to each of the groups listed to not match. If your sin means you're not saved.. but all your sins have been forgiven...
Once again I'm left unable to come to a resolution about my salvation based on this test that is supposed to clear up the issue for me. I can't call it. U?
2:15, 17- “If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (unbeliever). ..But whoever does the will of God abides forever (believer).
See my last above.. I should have included this quote in the above. I was not reading ahead - sorry.
The same thing. He's writing to people who are saved.. he spells this out with no wiggle room. Then he instructs these very same people not to love the world.
This is not a test it's instruction and assurance over and over again...
Kev
1). Why did John write 1Jn?
2). What was the backdrop for writing 1Jn?
As soon as Bridget figures these two things out, she will be released of her Roman Catholic "Evangelicalism."
Bridget I'm going to ignore most of your post because I'm just not interested in word games. You want to talk about supremacy of human will or whatever.. find a thread somewhere about that.
Kev, you repeatedly accuse me of teaching that one must be good to come to God and that one must be good to the end to be saved. You imply that I teach this and in these accusations is the implication that to submit to Christ or follow Christ or endure to the end is something that man does of his own free, autonomous will, lifting himself up by his own bootstraps if you will and determining to be “good” and present this goodness in trade for salvation is how you paint it. This is what you imply that I teach, and then when I try to explain and counter this accusation you cry “word games” and ignore it.
A good "proof" of trust is acting in a way that requires trust. It doesn't meant that one must act to trust, it means if we trust, any proof of that trust will be an act or attitude of reliance. I can't believe I have had to spell this out so many times. If you think that making my arguments become sloppy because of frustration will prove your point you are dead wrong. The only thing that would prove is that I'd be poor at controlling my emotions when provoked.
Brother, this is an honest exhortation: I feel like you frequently play the victim card. I am not trying to provoke you, so if you’re frustrated and feeling provoked, then maybe you should take that to the Lord in prayer. Anyways, I don’t think you’ve had to repeat this over and over. I do see what you’re saying here. You’re saying that proof of trust is that you act on that trust, but you can trust without acting on it. So I can basically trust Christ to save me and live 100 years and die without anyone knowing I trusted Him.
John is protecting them from the junk theology that would have them doubt their salvation because of sin.
Where do you get this from? What kind of “junk theology” was influencing the church at the time John wrote this? It wasn’t the judaizers. It was the false teaching that denied Christ had come in the flesh because they believed that flesh was evil. These Gnostic teachings led to the belief that what was done in the physical body didn’t matter, it didn’t affect the spirit, which led to lascivious living, but they didn’t consider this sin. John addresses all of these things.
I don’t know how you get merely assurance that one is saved out of this book. 1 John 3:10 alone totally debunks that:
“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.”
This clearly labels a person who does not practice righteousness as a child of the devil, and one who does as a child of God. I don’t see any wiggle room in that verse.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
It's not a link, but I just had to underline it. It seems you gloss over this part.
I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth
Yes, he is trusting that they are in the truth. Does that mean they he had no worries that they could be led astray?
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.” (2:19)
Do you think John knew they were “not of us” before they went out from them?
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous,
1Jn 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;
The Creek doesn't speak of "practicing" it speaks of doing - in the here and now. It's not a statement of "do we make a practice of" it's a statement of "do we do"?
Then why do you agree with the NKJV of verse 7? Whoever practices righteousness” This is the same present-tense Greek word Poieo that is used in verse 8. “He that committeth (doeth) sin” (KJV)
Do you see the contrast in these verses? He who is “doing” righteousness is righteous, he who is “doing” sin is of the devil. It’s a present-tense, on-going lifestyle of.
Bridget. You are not taking the test. How are you doing on each of these points. By this test are you saved?
I’m not where I want to be, but I am growing. Scripture says (and my experience agrees) that God does not leave me to drift. If I am veering off course or sitting still, He gives me a kick in the pants and gets me moving again. I don’t see John’s descriptions of a genuine believer as a snapshot, but at a moving picture (which the present tense Greek supports). It’s not about numbers (have I sinned once? Twice? A hundred times today?), it’s about a growing awareness and hatred of sin, and an ever increasing love for God. It is not black and white like you want it to be. If you don't think a person can feel assured they are saved unless it’s black and white, then I (and countless others) would disagree.
In Christ,
Bridget
It’s a present-tense, on-going lifestyle of.
and
it’s about a growing awareness and hatred of sin, and an ever increasing love for God.
Actually it's present-tense meaning committing right now. Not as a "lifestyle" but an action right now.
John doesn't speak of a "lifestyle" or "tendency" or "growing awareness" he speaks of action.
As long as you weaken what he says you will not see how your interpretation can not agree with the Scriptures. You miss out on the assurance, and the fellowship. You are not in full fellowship Bridget.
It is not black and white like you want it to be. If you don't think a person can feel assured they are saved unless it’s black and white, then I (and countless others) would disagree.
I know that many would disagree. They would prefer to build a religion than to have simple child-like faith. They would preach another gospel which is not Good News at all.
The Word paints an incredibly "black and white" picture to me. Two options, no in betweens... no grey.. no unsurity...
Mat 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Seems pretty clear cut... if you believe you will be saved.. if not you won't be. Looks pretty black and white to me.
Why can I accept that with no other conditions? Because I know that we are saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith apart from works.
Kev
kev, I responded in detail to your last comment and then lost it all (still havin 'puter problems..grrr) I'll put my thoughts together again better tomorrow and redo it. Too tired and too late. :/
Bridget
Bridget, sorry to hear that!
I'm out of time until later today now anyway so it's good you didn't post! :D
Kev
Actually it's present-tense meaning committing right now. Not as a "lifestyle" but an action right now.
The present-tense of the Greek does suggest a usual practice of, or a life-style of. We obviously disagree on this. But can you answer the question I asked about why you accept the interpretation the NKJV gives for verse 7, “He who practices (or doeth) righteousness”, but not for verse 8 when the same Greek word poieo is used? It’s obvious that these two verses are contrasting each other. And also: Wouldn’t you say that in verse 10, John is quite clearly telling us how to distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil?
“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.”
I know that many would disagree. They would prefer to build a religion than to have simple child-like faith. They would preach another gospel which is not Good News at all.
We believe in child-like faith. We just don’t believe in a powerless gospel such as you do. Your gospel is a powerless gospel in conversion unless man’s will decides to apply it to himself. He is the master of his own fate in conversion. Your gospel is a powerless gospel in sanctification unless man’s will decides to cooperate and be sanctified. He is the master of his own fate in sanctification. It seems God steps off the throne so man can sit down and be god during the first two stages of the new life, and it is only upon death (perhaps when man’s will dies too?) that God is given back His seat on the throne to rule and to reign. I’m just not sure why you decide at this point that man cannot usurp God’s power and be master of his own fate here as well. If this sounds harsh, it is meant to, because I take God's rightful glory very seriously.
I’ll ask you the same questions I have JP. Phil 2:13 says of sanctification that God works in us not only to work, but to will to work for His good pleaure. Do your beliefs align with this? Heb 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and 1 Peter 1:5 says that it is by God’s power that we are kept through this faith Do your beliefs align with this?
Do you not see kev, that God authors our faith? And that God keeps us persevering through faith? He is the one who gives us not only the strength to work but the WILL to work. And that God finishes (perfects) our faith? So that we will be able to say along with the Apostle Paul, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith! To GOD be the glory!"
Seems pretty clear cut... if you believe you will be saved.. if not you won't be. Looks pretty black and white to me.
I think it looks black and white because you’re looking at all of Scripture through this deceptive grid that is man-centered and gospel-diminishing.
Bridget
Hi Bridget, just have a minute or two. Got to get showered and back to work. But I'll answer a couple things quickly.
First, I had seen this question in your last post but I was confused as to why you were asking.
ut can you answer the question I asked about why you accept the interpretation the NKJV gives for verse 7, “He who practices (or doeth) righteousness”, but not for verse 8 when the same Greek word poieo is used?
I don't accept that either is a "lifestyle" or "tendency" but that each is an action happening now. It's not about what we did, or what we will do, it's about what we are doing right now.
Here's a brief, and all-together inadequate reason, Jesus said we can do nothing apart from Him John 15:5. Men are "dead" in their sins prior to Salvation. Eph 2:1, and the flesh is still dead in sin after Salvation, though now our spirit is alive in Righteousness as well. Rom 8:10
These are actions, not a style of life. You can do nothing, not your life style but an action.
If we "do" righteousness we are "doing" it can only be in His power.
I truly believe that 1 John is the clearest teaching on how to maintain fellowship while we still have these two battling natures living in us. I can reconcile the Text in no other way without instilling complete contradiction into it. I have to take each passage exactly as it is written and bend my understanding to what they say.. not bend the passages to what my understanding demands.
This is no easy task for even the most honest and uninfluenced person in the World. The Enemy would have us do anything but this.
You will not appreciate it as much I would hope you would but I sympathize with you in your situation. You sit under teaching that demands you look at Scripture the way you currently do all the time. What's more the force of the teaching you sit under is oppressing much of the Church, not just you.
Yes much of our conversations can lead to frustration but... I understand and sympathize.
I'm sorry I can't get further into your post right now.. I'm just barely going to make it back to work on time.
Kev
Bridget does not understand how the Greek present tense works.
Bridget, to complete my reply.
And also: Wouldn’t you say that in verse 10, John is quite clearly telling us how to distinguish the children of God from the children
I would agree with Strong's
5) children of the devil: those who in thought and action are prompted by the devil, and so reflect his character
I would also agree with Paul, that it is the flesh that sins, not the New Nature that is Christ in us.
I believe John is absolutely correct in saying that my flesh is of the Devil and is prompted by him first.
You make quite the claim:
We believe in child-like faith.
Followed by an ignorant (as in you are ignorant of the facts) insult:
We just don’t believe in a powerless gospel such as you do.
Let's test this claim shall we? I believe, as I am told in 1 Cor 15:1-2, that if I receive the Gospel that I will be Eternally Saved, that it will be in this message that I stand. I believe that if I believe I will be saved.
That's a powerful Gospel. It saves based on nothing from me except that I believe it. It is.. to coin a phrase from the Word - The power of God to salvation!
You believe that I must believe, and respond to that belief with willingness to submit, serve (unto death if you actually believe the Scriptures used to support this idea), forsake all sin, cast of all ties to the World.... and then perserver like this until the end then I will have "really" believed. Then, to coin the phrase used to express the need for such a message, I will have been "worthy" of the Christ.
Who has a powerful message of the Good News of Salvation based only on faith in Christ, and who has a message that is much to weak to provide assurance in it's self and results in one looking their own self to find assurance?
Kev
To go on.
Your gospel is a powerless gospel in sanctification unless man’s will decides to cooperate and be sanctified.
Is there an instance in the Bible where the Gospel is a message of practical sanctification - as in holy living? Is this the purpose of the Gospel? Is it the Good News of your new better life!?!
Or is it the Good News of your Salvation?
If the Gospel provides holy living, if it is the Discipleship, then the ministry of the Holy Spirit in Heb 12 seems un-needed. If the Gospel makes a person live a Holy Life, then those who are truly saved - those who have "really" believed - will live holy lives and they will not need to be disciplined.
The Gospel I preach, as preached by the Apostles, does not need man to live up to it. It is the power of God to Salvation and it doesn't need my assistance.
Kev
I’ll ask you the same questions I have JP. Phil 2:13 says of sanctification that God works in us not only to work, but to will to work for His good pleaure. Do your beliefs align with this? Heb 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and 1 Peter 1:5 says that it is by God’s power that we are kept through this faith Do your beliefs align with this?
Phil 2:13 - yup... I don't see the conflict. God disciples all believers... every single book in the Bible shows us that not all believers receive that discipleship with enthusiasm and fruitfulness.
Of Heb 12:2 you ask Do you not see kev, that God authors our faith?
I think one ought to check out the meaning of the word "author there....
It doesn't mean that He inserted faith into us... Likewise it would be valuable to check the meaning of the word finisher or perfector.
This is why men ought be fearful of teaching. James 3:1 It is why I do not trust commentaries. It is why I do not exhaust my ability to be taught by the Word by saturating myself with the teachings of men.
I think we should quote the who part of 1 Peter 1 there.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We are kept by the power of God (the Gospel) through faith - for Salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
Our salvation is eternal.. without doubt or lack of assurance...
Finally you go back to rash ignorant accusation.
I think it looks black and white because you’re looking at all of Scripture through this deceptive grid that is man-centered and gospel-diminishing.
Let us examine shall we? The Gospel Paul preached, and I echo, says that we are saved by God's action and merit. That our assurance comes only from God's action and merit. My Gospel says nothing of man, but that he can receive salvation through it.
Your gospel says that we must believe and dedicate, and that we gain assurance based on our new God given action and merit.
Which is centered on man?
The Gospel Paul preached, and I echo, says that when one receives it they are Eternally Saved based solely on the truth of the Gospel. The only vain belief would be if it were not true.
The Bible says that those who believe will be saved.
Your gospel says that if I receive it, and respond to it in a positive way and that this positive change endures then I will be saved. That my faith was in vain if I didn't "really" believe.
Your gospel says that if I "really" believe "enough" that I'll be saved.
Which one diminishes the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Kev
I would agree with Strong's
5) children of the devil: those who in thought and action are prompted by the devil, and so reflect his character
It is clearly contrasting the children of the devil with the children of God. Where does Scripture ever address believers as “children of the devil”?
I would also agree with Paul, that it is the flesh that sins, not the New Nature that is Christ in us.
So you align yourselves with Gnostic teachings then? The flesh is bad and has nothing to do with the spirit, so what we do in the flesh doesn’t matter.
That's a powerful Gospel.It saves BASED ON NOTHING FROM ME EXCEPT THAT I believe it.
That says it all. It’s based on nothing from me EXCEPT….That exception makes it a works-based gospel. God’s grace + my good decision to have faith (a decision that most of the world doesn’t make) = salvation. I wonder why most don’t make this decision? Maybe because (as the Bible says), no man seeks God. Maybe because all sinners hate the light with a passion and will not come to the light apart from GOD’s effectual work in them. I wish you could see the error of your theology and the irony of your accusations. And your gospel is in-fact powerless to save UNLESS man appropriates it. Unless he makes the super-wise and good decision to apply it.
You believe that I must believe, and respond to that belief with willingness to submit serve
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is GOD who works in you both to will and to work…”
…and then perserver like this until the end
“For in it (the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith’”-Rom 1:17
“But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”-Heb 10:39
“Being confident of this very thing, that He who has began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”-Phil 1:6
then I will have "really" believed. Then, to coin the phrase used to express the need for such a message, I will have been "worthy" of the Christ.
“Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of HIS goodness and the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”-2 Thes 1:11-12
I don’t know why, but you keep on trying to make it look like I’m saying that it is the Christian himself who makes himself worthy, presents his own goodness, keeps himself faithful etc..etc..etc.. after I have repeatedly said it is not true.
Is there an instance in the Bible where the Gospel is a message of practical sanctification - as in holy living?
“pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God….lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.”-Heb 12:14-17
“Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”-2 Cor 7:1
Is this the purpose of the Gospel? Is it the Good News of your new better life!?!
Or is it the Good News of your Salvation?
The gospel doesn’t just deliver us from God’s wrath so we can be saved from hell, it also delivers us from the power of sin. So it is good news of our salvation AND our new and better life. Wouldn’t you say it’s a better life to walk with Christ then to walk in the way of the world and enjoy the deceitful practices of sin for a season, AND it’s good news to be saved from hell?
If the Gospel provides holy living, if it is the Discipleship, then the ministry of the Holy Spirit in Heb 12 seems un-needed. If the Gospel makes a person live a Holy Life, then those who are truly saved - those who have "really" believed - will live holy lives and they will not need to be disciplined.
It is the gospel that provides for and is the foundation of EVERYTHING we have, from the moment we breath and into eternity. If God had not ordained before time began that Jesus would suffer and die for sinners such as us, we would have no hope of ever having the ministry of the Holy Spirit, or needing the ministry of the Holy Spirit because there would be only wrath to face. So it definitely does provide holy living.
The Gospel I preach, as preached by the Apostles, does not need man to live up to it. It is the power of God to Salvation and it doesn't need my assistance.
You say one thing and believe another. The gospel you preach certainly DOES need you to live up to it, because if you don’t rise up and make the decision to trust in the gospel, there is no power in it at all, and so it most certainly DOES needs your assistance.
And as far as the ministry of the Holy Spirit, this not only needs your assistance, but is totally powerless to do anything without your assistance. I’m just still trying to find out why God doesn’t need your assistance in glorification too.
Phil 2:13 - yup... I don't see the conflict. God disciples all believers... every single book in the Bible shows us that not all believers receive that discipleship with enthusiasm and fruitfulness.
Don’t you mean they don’t receive it at all? It’s becoming clearer and clearer to me the extreme to which your beliefs lead kev. You keep wanting to paint me as teaching that one must purpose in his heart to be good and do good works for God in order to obtain salvation, but I see how far in the other direction you must go to maintain these beliefs you have.
Not only can a person trust in Christ for 100 years and die w/out anyone knowing they were a beleiver at all, not only can a person shake his fist at God and say NO to His will in conversion, but even if he “decides” to trust Him, he can shake his fist and say NO to His will in sanctification and throughout his entire life. In-fact, here’s an extreme: if a serial, child-molesting rapist said he trusts Christ, but didn’t even feel bad about his sin and continued in it day in and day out, you STILL could not doubt his salvation, because you cannot even bring yourself to say that there are ANY evidences that one can go by to indicate someone believes or trusts in Christ.
You think the leadership I sit under is causing such harm to the body of Christ? I pray that you will see the potential devastation that you are doing to the body. You think you are upholding the gospel of Christ by preaching what you call “Free Grace”? (a misnomer). I will say it again: You are getting in the way of the very means with which God keeps men persevering in their faith. Your teachings do not encourage men to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, knowing God is at work in them to will and work for His good pleasure. Your teachings cause people (like my husband) to sit back and put their feet up or even oppose God with no fear of Him whatsoever. You’re so afraid of bringing undo worry upon tender-hearted Christians who would doubt their salvation, but you have no fear whatsoever of encouraging luke warm or cold “Christians” to embrace their idols and prostitute themselves daily with no fear of God in their hearts whatsoever.
“I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they may not depart from me.”-Jer 32:40
I’m wondering if we’ve maybe hit an impasse.
In Christ,
Bridget
Do you want to know if you really believe in a gospel of "free grace" kev? Then ask yourself this question:
Can I look at unbelievers and honestly say "There go I but by the grace of God"?
If you can't, then you don't believe in a gospel of free grace.
Do you want to know if you really believe in a gospel of "free grace" kev? Then ask yourself this question:
Can I look at unbelievers and honestly say "There go I but by the grace of God"?
If you can't, then you don't believe in a gospel of free grace.
I say, know, and am thankful (for His Grace) every day.
Kev
I’m wondering if we’ve maybe hit an impasse.
I challenged you to question your own Salvation by this standard honestly. Is this how you attained the Spirit? Is this how you will be perfected?
I have only briefly read your post, skipping much of it. But the parts that I read are just more of the same... using texts that have nothing to do with the how a person gets saved as a requirement for salvation.
I'm tired of having to ensure your latest posts do not harm other believers and sinners.
I will examine this post later and if it contains nothing new and if it would require a detailed response to protect people I will simply delete it.
You are no longer allowed to promote this point of view at this blog. Further posts will be deleted.
I asked you to take the "test" you provided in 1 John. By your own standard you failed, as did I. My purpose what that "lying lips would be stopped." I have allowed you to go to far here because I truly thought there could be reconciliation.
It is time to protect those who can not protect themselves.
Your conversation on this subject is done here. Post no more on it.
Kev
At least for the moment I'm going to leave Bridget's post up. I find it HIGHLY offensive. But I also believe it will help people see the ugly extreems that the Lordship Salvation (LS) proponent must go to in order support their system against clear, simple, Biblical Truth.
Bridget continues to indicate that rules, warnings, guides, exhortation... and all the other things that say "you ought to do this" makes it clear that a "true" Christian will live a holy life.
Here's a question. Do stop signs, speed limit signs, and yellow center lines mean that True Drivers will drive safely?
The very fact that the Bible tells "true" believers to behave in a certine way means that it is possible, even LIKELY, that they will not behave in that way. If a true believer will act a way there is no reason to exhort that same true believer to actually be have that way...
here are some logical fallacies that Bridget (and other LS proponents) commit as they argue their case.
Complex Cause
The argument that LS says is that people will live a holy life because they are truly saved. The Bible indicates that truly saved people will be discipled into living more holy as they are worked on by the Holy Spirit.
The Exclusion.
The LS proponent ignors and all the evidence in the Bible that a True Believer can be carnal. Though the Scriptures lay this out plainly the LS Proponent declares that this is a "new idea" invented by people who promote a "false gospel".
Gotta go.. at work.
Kev
Bro. Kev,
I know this may not "fit" here, but I am just am amazed at some of the teaching I read in your link to the works of Bro. Mackintosh over at bro. Lou's blog! I had read some of his works before, & was blessed, but just now I read some of his writing on conversion, & I must say that it just convicted me to the core! I felt so sinful & inadequate before a holy God just realizing how infinitely short I fall. I am so thankful that my promise or even attempting to live a holy life is what constitutes whether I am saved or not! I'd fall woefully short. I am just laying it out on the line. Then I read Bro. Mackintosh's teaching on Leviticus 16 & how it pointed back to the cross & Christ's blood! Praise God!! If it were not for the blood of His cross, oh bro. Kev how lost & undone & hellbound I would be & rightly so. Praise God for the cross of Christ. I had been really depressed lately over all the debates over free grace, but I just needed to go back to the core & heart of it all, & be reminded of His precious blood & how it has saved me. Even now as I type this I still feel so sinful & yet as I remember His cross, I am at once at peace! I have rambled I know, but I just wanted to thank you for posting that link to Bro. Mackintosh's work as well as your entire blog.
Bro. Kev,
I just made a terrible typo! When I said, "I am so thankful that my promise or even attempting to live a holy life is what constitutes whether I am saved or not!" I MEANT to say "I am so thankful that my promise or even attempting to live a holy life is NOT what constitutes whether I am saved or not!"
David that's an incredible post!!!
Mackintosh has an amazing ministry even so long after his death. He's one of the very few writers that I just plain trust.
How many times have I found him saying something that I thought was wrong.. only to find out that I am the one who is wrong. Not because he convinces me but because he takes me through the whole of Scripture and that convinces me.
Love ya Bro,
Kev
Thank you bro. Kev. One thing I am guilty of is too much introspection, but the Lord always seems to focus my attention back on the only thing that brings peace, the cross of Christ. God Bless you brother, you are a blessing to me.
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