Today I decided not to go out running. My wife who is more dedicated to the enterprise of physical fitness than I am decided she would go even though she wasn't feeling the best. While she was out running it started to rain. Well OK it was more than just rain it was a downpour! It doesn't rain that hard very often, let's just leave it at that. Yes I giggled, and when I tried to stop giggling I believe there was some belly laugh action happening. :)
But my first instinct was to run upstairs grab a couple of jumbo towels, take them down to the basement and shove them in the dryer so she'd have big warm towels to wrap around her when she got home. I did this, and when she came in she loved the treatment.
So the question is, did this act of service - this "good work" - prove that I trust her? Or did it prove something else?
This is the crux of the discussion about "evidences" of Salvation. It's clear that some people are going to do good works without ever having been saved, and it's also clear that people who are saved are going to do Good Works. So they are not an accurate test of Salvation.
In a person who is saved they are an accurate test of maturity though.
What my little episode with the towels proves is that I love and care for my wife. Not that I trust her. Just like Good Works, if done in the power of God and for His Glory (if they be TRUE Good Works) are not proof of our Salvation they are proof of our love for Him.
UPDATE: I should comment on my conclusions in the article. My actions don't actually prove my love for my wife. They might be resultant of that love, or of a desire to appear as though I love her.
This doing something for appearance is what the people who will have called Jesus "Lord, Lord" will have done. Mat 7:21-23
24 comments:
Kev,
Amen! In my Bible I notice the fact that Eph. 2:10 and 2 Cor. 5:15 (cf. Rom. 6:4) say that Christians "should" walk in good works, but the text does not say that Christians "will" walk in good works. Unfortunately, some Christians who are actually saved will never walk in good works (1 Cor. 3:15)!
JP
Ooo. Excellent point Kev!
And good for you for serving your wife like that. :)
JP's point about 1 Cor 3:15 is great too. I don't know why I keep forgetting that one.
JanH
Hi JP,
To understand this 1 Cor 3:15 passage, we must understand the context in which Paul is saying this. In the beginning of Ch 3, Paul is addressing the problem of division in the church, which is causing damage to the building up of the Church. There is jealousy and pride, causing division as some align themselves with Paul and some with Apollos, and Paul basically pulls the rug out from under them by declaring that he plants and Apollos waters, but it is GOD who gives the increase and it is HIM in whom we should boast.
And then he goes on with another illustration of a “building”, with Paul laying the foundation (Jesus Christ), and Apollos building on that foundation (so in the same way that he plants and Apollos waters, he builds the foundation and Apollos builds on that foundation). Then vs. 9 says, “For we are God’s fellow workers, you are God’s “field”, you are God’s “building” (so in his illustrations, the field and the building represent the Church).
Then in vs. 10, he says, “let each one take heed how he builds on it”, and he’s not merely speaking of Apollos, but of all the new teachers that are rising up in Corinth (In 4:15, Paul says, “For though you may have might have ten thousand instructors in Christ”). So there are other “guides” building on the foundation that Paul has laid.
This warning (to take heed how one builds on it), is to Pastors, sunday school teachers, parents etc., who are building the church. There are consequences to building with "wrong" teachings that detract from the foundation, which is CHRIST, and these works will burn like the wood, hay and straw that they are made of (though the person can be a true Christian and be saved). But building the Church with "right" teachings that reflect and glorifify Christ (the foundation) are works that are made of gold, silver and precious stones, and they will stand the test of fire.
It is ALSO possible to destroy the church that we serve in by destroying the very foundation (CHRIST), and vs. 11 says “for no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ, and vs. 17 says, “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.”
So this is addressing people who are “building the Church”, not individual Christians who may or may not not have “works” evident in their lives.
Bridget
Those who think they might escape the Judgment Seat of Christ because they are not "pastors, teachers..." or "people building the Church" ought to investigate a bit further.
It is this Judgment by Christ of all believers that James compares to being judged under the Royal Law in James 2. If you understand how fearful James' language is you will understand how serious this Judgment is going to be for each of us.
Here is more information on the subject. Thoughts on the Judgment Seat of Christ
Kev
I should comment on my conclusions in the article. My actions don't actually prove my love for my wife. They might be resultant of that love, or of a desire to appear as though I love her.
This doing something for appearance is what the people who will have called Jesus "Lord, Lord" will have done.
Mat 7:21-23 NKJV
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
They were "doing" things. Even good works - in the Name of Christ. But this is not the will of the Father. They had not obeyed the Gospel - which is to believe it.
Kev
Yes, if we are Christians, we are all involved one way or another in “building the church”, notice I included parents in there and anyone who teaches, instructs.
But we cannot pull verse 15 out of there and use it to prove that a Christian might not produce any good works. The context is building the Church on the right foundation, which is Christ, and that any works that go into building the Church in a way that detracts from that foundation and don't bring rightful glory and honor to Christ will be burned up as wood, hay and straw.
This passage doesn’t have anything to do with whether a Christian will have evidences of saving faith in their lives or not. I would think that you would have mentioned this kev, considering that you always tell me I’m proof-texting. I hope that you're not willing to over-look such proof-texting as long as it goes along with your system of belief.
Bridget
Bridget,
Your question is very hard to answer honestly because you are asking a false question. You are asking a question based on the false premise that works are evidences of salvation. I have yet to find or be shown a single verse in the Bible that accurately states that works prove salvation, or that they are to be used for that purpose. I have however shown you many verses that show that they are not to be used that way. Paul's not judging himself, Jesus showing that people's good works will have profited them nothing if they had never believed..
I have not looked at the Greek of 1 Cor 3:15 but it is clearly speaking of the qaulity of works not the existence of them (the Judgment is not IF you worked, but does anything you did stand the test of Fire), the English is not abused by the understanding that it is speaking of the person's lifetime of work as a whole. It MAY be speaking of individual works, but this does seem to fit with the result. If it is just one work being tested at a time then surely the result can not be known until they are all tested - will the person be saved from this Judgment?
If it is the life time of work and it all burns then that person will never have produced a "good work" but they will be saved yet so as through fire.
From the English I do not see another way to understand this. There may be an other way. However, reasonings do not trump a plain reading of the text. I'm not at all interested in what it "must" be saying, only what it says.
Kev
Kev,
I don't believe bp's distinction between Christians building the church vs. individual Christians is accurate. More specifically, I don't think bp's distinction between Christian good works building the church vs. other Christian good works is accurate. Such a distinction is invalid due to the fact that all Christians are part of the church (Eph. 1:22-23, 5:30, etc.). We all play a part in building or destroying the church in some way by the way we live our lives (Eph. 2:20-22; 1 Pt. 2:5)! Therefore, this building or tearing down of the church can indeed have a personal as well as public effect (1 Cor. 3:16-17, 12:20,27; Rom. 12:4-5).
Furthermore, Paul makes it clear that the judgement seat of Christ concerns all Christians (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). So when Paul refers to "each man" in 1 Cor. 3:13, and "any man" in 1 Cor. 3:15, I understand him to actually mean "each" and "any" Christian brother in Christ (1 Cor. 3:1,9), not simply those Christians with positions of church leadership or authority. It is clear that all Christians have the potential to receive a reward (1 Cor. 3:14). Likewise, all Christian have the potential to suffer loss (1 Cor. 3:15). 1 Cor. 3:15 clearly teaches that some Christians will have nothing to show for their Christian life except for a pile of ashes!
JP
Kev,
I don't see how bp's understanding of the passage ultimately changes anything in regards to 1 Cor. 3:15. Even if the Christians are only those in positions of leadership and authority, these Christians still have the potential to suffer loss, have all their Christian works burned up, and still be saved yet so as by fire. But again, I see the verse in reference to all Christians.
JP
JP I completely agree.
I had intended on simply dismissing her entire post by linking to "thoughts on the Judgment Seat of Christ."
I find it exhausting trying to keep up with the many convenient twists of what is written.
To be frank, the more I am reading in John MacAurthur's book the more angry I am getting. I used to think that LS was at least about glorifying Christ and ensuring His Holiness was proclaimed and seen. However the more I read the more I realize the truth is that it is about glorifying the "believer" (and I use that term loosely in this context).
Kev
JP and Kev, I am not even suggesting that anyone will escape the Judgment Seat of Christ. The point is, you cannot use this text to try to prove that LS is wrong when they say that true Christians will have works just because it says in this particular text (speaking of the work of building the Church) that some Christians will have their works burned up, because:
1. LS doesn’t differentiate between works that endure and works that do not endure (because we don't know and only God will be the only judge of that), it just says that a Christian will have works, or evidences of faith.
2. When the LS position speaks of works as “evidence of their salvation” or as “evidence of saving faith”, we are not merely speaking in terms of the works of building the Church. There are many other works or “evidences of faith” that a person can have, such as having a heart that loves Christ, hating sin and battling it, having a heart for the brethren, having a hunger for God’s Word and for fellowship with other believers, etc. These works also are all evidences of salvation (genuine saving faith).
So this text is not a argument agains LS at all.
Bridget that is so twisted up....
1 Cor 3:15 is not just speaking about "building the church" it is about our entire lives.
Please stop reasoning and use exegesis. And whatever you do, don't think that we will argue from within your paradigm. That you think this passage only relates to one portion of Christian living doesn't make it so, and it surely doesn't not mean that we are arguing from that point of view.
Kev
That’s because in a sense our entire lives as Christians ARE affecting the building of the Church. But what I’ve been trying to say (obviously not clearly) is that a Christian could have all their works burned up because they have not built with materials in keeping with the exaltation of Christ as the foundation (maybe they are doctrinally misguided for instance) but could still have clear signs (or) evidences that they have saving faith. The fact that they are “building” or “watering” is one evidence itself. It is only God who judges what will or will not endure. So to say no good works that endure = no works befitting repentance is off base. Does that make sense?
Bridget
If they are in deed "Good Works" they will endure because they will be done in faith. If however they are works done that have good results but are not done in faith then they will burn.
Any work "befitting repentance" will not burn. Every work that burns is not befitting.
Kev
But does the text say anything at all about “good” works? It does talk of works that “endure”, but don’t you think it’s possible for a Christian to do works in faith, but they can unknowingly do injury to the Church because the works themselves are not built on the foundational teachings of Christ?
For instance, if it were true that LS is false and as you say, it is a “works-based” system that frustrates grace, and minimizes the work of Christ, if JM or anyone else for that matter were to teach this in a SS class or wherever, and in the end, these works were burned up because they were not built with materials consistent with the exaltation and glory of Christ, would these works still not be done in faith? And would they not still be “works befitting repentance”?
Aren’t “works befitting repentance” simply works that show or are consistent with someone who has repented? I hope I’m not confusing you more…. :(
Bridget
Not to be rude or presumptuous but you're not confusing me at all.
If Christians "walk in" Good Works prepared before hand by the Lord then those Good Works will be "good" and will endure. Anything else will not be "of the Lord" and won't be "built on that foundation" and so will not endure the test of Fire.
But why not talk about the subject of the article. Do you suppose "good works" are proof of trust (faith)?
Kev
We're not going to necessarily know if all of our works are "good" until the Judgment Seat, but yes, I do think that works can be evidences of true saving faith.
And I do think my comments “are” in regard to the subject of the article. I was making the point that 1 Cor 3:15 cannot be used as proof that since some will have all their works burned up, we can’t look to our works as evidences or signs of salvation. If all our works being burned meant we weren’t truly saved, then it would support that, but the fact that some will have them all burned and STILL BE SAVED does not allow for that conclusion.
But secondly, because everyone has some doctrinal errors and misunderstandings (look at your own road as a Christian—did you ever teach or build on the foundation of Christ wrongly?), it’s easy to see how we, as Christians can unknowingly teach or instruct others in error and so build in such a way that hurts the body and it does not endure, but that doesn't mean we could not at the time examine our works as evidence of saving faith.
Now, if a foundation is laid other than Jesus Christ, then those works cannot give any assurance whatsoever, because they are not done in faith regarding Christ at all.
Maybe that makes sense and maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, it's probably because I'm not communicating clearly. But this will be my last post on your blog, kev. Lou has asked me to move on, so it’s probably a good time to move on here too. Thanks for letting me post and my best wishes to you, brother.
In Christ,
Bridget
Kev,
It sounds like you are understanding bp's argument. Maybe you could explain it to me. I was getting a headache trying to understand what she was saying. It's late, maybe I'm just tired.
JP
Kev,
By the way, I really appreciated when you said: "Please stop reasoning and use exegesis." As I'm sure you will agree, nothing wrong with reasoning, but not at the expense of exegesis. I share your zeal for exegesis. That's why I wrote a whole article examining the exegesis of the Gospel in part 4 of my series.
JP
Hey JP,
Here is my best explanation of what I think her position is.
Bridget's main paradigm is that Salvation needs to be proved by evidences. No evidence, no assurance by either the individual or the observer. This is of upped most importance to her and it is this lens that she views all Scripture through.
Because of the above, there must be evidences, so it is perfectly reasonable that a person be made aware of their requirement. Since they are automatic in every true believer Lordship Salvation is reasonable and sorts out the true from the false converts.
In the case of 1 Cor 3:15 the judgment must be burning up some of these evidences because no one will have no evidences and still be saved. Therefore it is speaking about our 'building' and though we might build in error in response to repentance as a true "good work" because it is in error that work will burn. Yet it would still be considered an evidence of Salvation.
End of my explanation.
I tried not to interject my opinions about her position in this. I think this is what she believes. At least in short.
Blessya Bro!
Kev
Bridget you would have been welcome to continue posting here if you were to argue from the Word and not just from what you think is reasonable.
Kev
I have just deleted a comment. This is only the third time I have ever done this at OMW. The other two times were because the commenter was claiming to be Jesus Christ and was obviously in error.
This time I deleted a comment by Bridget. Because she simply rehashed a bunch of things that were already spoken of and yet again characterized my responses to her in correctly. She claimed that I would not submit that Christians are saved, being saved and will be saved. This is not true. What I hold on that subject is that we are Eternally Saved, Sanctified, and then Glorified. But of course with the endless posts it was impossible to get to that part of the conversation.
The only portion of her post that I see as being reasonable to have remain here is this.
I’ve also referenced many passages in 1 john where a distinction is clearly being made between what a true born again Christian will look like and what a false "believer" will look like and I've also referenced 2:29 that says “everyone who ’practices’ or ‘doeth’ righteousness is born of Him”, (the verb form of this Greek word, Poieo means “to make” or “to do”), which as far as I remember, I’ve heard no comment on (although Lou did delete it the last time I referenced it).
While her take on 1 John being a picture of those who are saved, and those who are not has been refuted in more threads than I can remember.. there have been many... the simple argument is this. 1 John says that everyone who commits sin is of the Devil, and also that Christians can sin. Therefore 1 John is not speaking of a person being saved or not.
The verse she references 1 Jn 2:29 when she says that we have not commented on it is actually just another example of the same.
1 John is teaching "God's dear little children" about fellowship and maturity. He who practices righteousness is of God. This does not mean that this is a test of Salvation.. do you practice righteousness???? Then you are or are not saved... the rest of 1 John blows such an argument away.
If one were to take 1 John literally (which I highly encourage) and use it as a test of Salvation without skipping verses and taking every word literally then there has never once been a saved Christian.
Go ahead, take the test - but don't cheat. Don't use "is this my lifestyle?" or "do I want to do righteousness?" Have you committed sin? Uh oh....
Kev
Thanks Kev,
If bp's interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:15 is true it seems to nullify the meaning of the phrase "saved yet so as by fire". This phrase doesn't mean certain good works survive the flames! The Greek word speaks of a complete and utter burning, a burning down to the ground! From my research it is the strongest word for "burn" in the Greek language. So when Paul says "saved yet so as by fire" he means that the Christian will be saved, but no works survived the flames. The works were only "wood, hay, and stubble".
God bless you my friend!
JP
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