Tuesday, July 08, 2008

The Power Of God To Salvation

Christian, what is the “object” of your faith? Evangelist, what is the object of the faith you call people to so that they might be saved? Pastor, what is the object of the faith you build the flock up in? Is the object Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross, or is the object the quality, quantity, and/or consistency of a person’s response to the messaged preached?

One might ask, 'What is authentic faith'? The Bible use the word faith, or pisteuo (in transliterated Greek) which has the meaning “conviction of the truth of anything, belief;Vine amplifies this with “belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the sameFaith is the confidence that something is true and the natural trusting that results from that confidence.

I had intended this writing to be the catalyst of a healthy new discussion on Lordship Salvation’s additions to the Gospel of grace. However, it seems just linking to the uncommonly short article at Lou Martuneac’s blog, In Defense of the Gospel, which reviews one key page in John MacArthur's third and latest edition of his original The Gospel According to Jesus has done that already.

Still be sure, my purpose in writing this is beyond getting some thoughts out of my head and down on paper, or maybe pixels. For most of the Winter and Spring my focus had been toward answering and limiting the spread of the Grace Evangelical Society’s (GES) reductionist Crossless” interpretation of the Gospel. Many men have joined together in this cause and it has been a great blessing to learn from and with them. I don’t believe the GES reductionist views are as “dangerous” because they do not, nor indeed can, carry the same credibility as the argument for Lordship Salvation. The proponents of the reductionist view are tenacious, but unless blinded, the casual student of the Word can easily recognize the error. This is not so with Lordship Salvation, and that should not surprise us.

Much of the New Testament deals with and warns of this vein of additionist religious teachings commonly known as Lordship Salvation. Paul knew that Christians would be drawn to things that have the appearance of Holiness, Col 2:23 He knew it, and spent most of his ministry arguing against such false systems telling us over and over again that Christ is our righteousness that there is no profit in anything outside of or in addition to Him.

A short and overly simplified description of Lordship Salvation, indicates that saving faith (that faith which is required of a sinful man in order that he will be saved by God) includes:
1) Submission to the lordship of Christ over all areas of one’s life,
2) A willingness to meet the demands of discipleship (although these proponents sometimes indicate that actually meeting the demands is not the requirement, just the willingness to do so),
3) Loving the Lord Jesus above all things,
4) Forsaking sin,
5) Seeking to live a righteous life.
The impossibility of this proposition is recognized by the additionists and this opens the door for the idea that “regeneration” (being Born Again into God's family) happens to the sinner before they have faith or do anything toward God at all. They are Born Again, then God reveals Himself and then He gives them the Faith to believe in Him, submit, love absolutely... and so on.. and THEN they are saved.

Brethren, does God save people apart from faith? If a person is born again into God's family apart from Faith then Salvation is not “through Faith” at all. Eph 2:8-9

Brethren consider this;
Rom 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ,for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.”
God declares that the Gospel is His power to salvation for everyone who believes. What ought we to add to the power of God in order that we might attain Eternal Life?

The Gospel of Christ is, “The Good News of Christ (God’s Anointed One)” The Gospel is “Good News” not a set of requirements for man. It's not a contract, it's a declaration! It is the “power of God” to salvation for everyone who “believes” which is pisteuo or who places confidence in it. The News is about Jesus and His work on the Cross. This is the plain, clear, and absolute teaching of the Word of God on the subject of Salvation.

Some will ask “What of repentance unto life then?” I declare in agreement with the Word of God that Repentance unto life is a “change of mind” and a “changing of mind” (metanoia and metanoeo) about sin, righteousness, judgment and Christ in response to the convicting and convincing by God the Holy Spirit. John 16:7-11 Let us first read the Apostle’s introduction to the Gospel and then the Gospel it’s self to see if we see this repentance unto life in it, and if we can then see it in Romans 1:16.

The Apostle Paul declares this Gospel in I Cor 15.
1 Cor 15:1-2 “1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.”
Here Paul says he is going to “declare the Gospel” that the Corinthians “received” at some point in the past.

The Gospel is something you “obey” 2 Thes 1:8 1 Peter 1:17 Rom 10:16
Romans 10:16 “But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
And obeying the Gospel is “believing” it, as per Rom 10:16.
Even still The Gospel doesn’t contain instructions one must obey. It is a message, “Good News” of things accomplished by God on our behalf. This news is “received” 1 Cor 15:1 or “rejected” John 12:48 & Acts 13:46

But what does it mean to “receive”? 1 Cor 15:1 says paralambano is an active “response” to hearing the Gospel. We “take it to ourselves” or we “accept it” It is in the Second Aorist tense meaning it happened at some point in the past. The voice is Active which means the Corinthians are the ones who “received” this Gospel. The mood is Indicative meaning Paul is making a “statement of fact” So Paul says it is a statement of fact that you accepted this.

And Paul continues, by saying “in which you stand.” “You stand” is rendered from histemi which is “to be placed firmly, fixed”. It is in the Perfect Tense which “describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.” It is also in the Active Voice and the Indicative Mood. “You stand” means it is a finished work, that you stand, and it is simple fact – not to be debated. This is Eternal Security found right in the Gospel.

It’s of great importance to point out that Paul is writing these Corinthians to remind them that the Resurrection is true, that we do have Eternal Life, that we will be raised up at the end. This infidelity of the Corinthians, together with Paul's statement “unless you have believed in vain” needs to be considered. How can a person's belief be in “in vain”? Can this mean a “weak belief” or a belief that is only a “profession” or “mental assent”? The Apostle explains what it means to “believe in vain” himself through the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit,
1 Cor 15:12-18 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
It is not the quality of the believer's believing that Paul says can be “in vain” it is the object of that belief. Only if Christ is not risen, then our belief would be in vain. Yet, the additionists would have you measure the quality of your faith through prior commitment, works or other evidences in order that you could actually be saved. But the Apostle Paul says, you put your faith in this, and by it you are eternally saved be reminded of this.

Brethren, Paul is writing this encouragement to the same Corinthians, many of whom were living out a very poor Christian testimony. Paul called these born again Corinthians “carnal” to the point that they could not “receive” anything beyond the basics of the faith. 1 Cor 3:1-3 Yet, Paul writes of their Eternal Salvation as an established fact.

Do you see repentance in Rom 1:16 now? Do you see that the Gospel is “obeyed” when it is “received” and do you see that God saves those who have Faith in His Son? Peter says the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls. This is exactly the opposite of regeneration prior to faith. 1 Peter 1:9 Paul says that this faith can come from the revelation we receive, that it is this revelation that makes us “wise” unto Salvation through Faith. And that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. 2 Tim 3:15 Rom 10:17
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Is the assurance of your Eternal Salvation, the quality of your faith & performance or the quality of the Person and His finished works? Is the Gospel the power of God to salvation, or is it His regenerating work? Is the Gospel the willingness of a lost person submission and commitment to performance expected of a born again Christian? What say you? What does the Bible say?

What is authentic faith? The Word of God says “authentic faith” is confidence that Jesus Christ, as identified by the Gospel, was qualified to, and actually did accomplish everything written in the Gospel on our behalf and the confidence that in this alone we stand righteously before Holy God.

This what the Bible says, and, each and every Apostle Jesus Christ sent to bare testimony of Him, and His death, burial and resurrection. This Gospel truly is the power of God unto Salvation and here it is declared in detail by the Apostle Paul himself under inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. Can there be further debate among the Brethren if Scripture declares it?
1 Cor 15:1-11 “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed,”
Authentic faith” receives this, and the one who does receive it is saved and will eternally stand on these grounds and by no other means. This is the power of God unto Salvation.

The follow-up to this article will be 'The Offense Of The Cross' God willing it will be done soon, and will cover several ways that the Cross offends people. Including that the Innocent was condemned while the guilty ones go completely free, and how the Cross shows the world exactly what a bloody spectacle their own sin is, and that the ruler of this world, the one the world bows down to and follows has been judged and is defeated no matter who bows down to him.

109 comments:

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

I appreciate the time you invested in this important article. Lordship Salvation simpy fails the test of Scripture, which you have very capably demonstrated.

God bless you,


Lou

Kevl said...

Thanks Lou, and thank you for reviewing and editing it!

Kev

jazzycat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevl said...

jazzycat,

What are you talking about? Your post reads more like a commercial for your websites than it does a response to the article you have placed it under.

I did not even mention Calvinism in this article, let alone charge it with anything...

A person is Born Again when they are saved. I'm not sure how strictly I should interpret a Blog comment - I make grammatical and spelling errors in them nearly every time I make one... but if you meant a person must be born again in order to get saved, that's just not true. The Bible teaches that those who believe are born again by Grace through faith. One is born again because they believe. Not one believes because they are born again. I'm sorry if I read too much in to your post. I have to allow for the chance that you were not promoting Regeneration prior to Faith and Salvation.

You can see my work on James 2 here http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2007/05/can-faith-without-works-save-you.html

You stated It is awful easy to make charges like LM, but quite another to back it up. in the same post where you claim that I have "falsely charged Calvinism with adding works to salvation"

Who is "making up charges" here?

I'm going to pray about your post, but right now I think it's simply a commercial advertising your blogs. If I still feel that way after prayer I will delete your comment.

Bless you,
Kev

jazzycat said...

Kevl,
The comment was more in response to the thread over a LM blog. My point on being born again in this comment was that regardless of when it happens, all saved believers are born again (John 3:3). You do read a lot into a lot of things and this prevents you from having an understanding of my doctrinal views. I am in no way trying to advertise my blogs. I have some posts there that refute some of the outrageous insults that I received at LM's blog. I know you are not responsible for him, but there was certainly participation on your part in blowing off my attempts to set the record straight.

I am going to delete my previous comment and save you the trouble!

Kevl said...

Hi Jazzycat,

Thanks for deleting the post. I don't like strong moderation that "manufactures" agreement through brute force. Consensus, especially forced consensus is not fellowship at all.

There is a great tendency for the conversation to get distracted when we talk about the Gospel. With the reductionists they want to talk about what they preach instead of what they believe the Gospel might actually. With additionists it's always about what ought to be the expectation of a "true conversion."

Lou's article was not about Calvinism any more than mine is. The conversation isn't about that. Although I think there is valid reason for conversation about that theological system.

What must one do to be saved? That is the discussion. That is the all important question that must be clearly answered in the Word of God with no "reasonings." It is answered clearly and simply so that even a child can respond. "Believe."

All other distractions from that question and answer - when they are the subject - are just that distractions. Why would a Calvinist get offended and defend their theological system when it is not even mentioned?

Do you agree with the article I have posted The Power Of God To Salvation? Parts of it even? What areas give you concern?

Bless you,
Kev

Jonathan Perreault said...

Hi Kev:

I agree with you that faith in Christ preceeds regeneration/the new birth.

When I was a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago I took a class on Systematic Theology in which the instructor (Dr. Finch) was a five point Calvinist. He believed regeneration preceeded faith. So one day I raised my hand and asked him a simple question: If regeneration preceeds faith why does John 3:16 teach that faith preceeds life? Dr. Finch never did answer my question.

JP

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

You wrote to Jazzy, “What are you talking about? Your post reads more like a commercial for your websites than it does a response to the article you have placed it under.”

This exactly why I deleted one of his comments at my blog. He was encouraging my guests to read his blog, which is dedicated to the promotion five point Calvinism. His series is promoting the extra-biblical view of regeneration before faith. That is the view that a lost man is regenerated (born again) prior to and apart from personal faith in Christ.

He was infuriated and it appears to have become a root of anger and bitterness in his heart, which he is exhibiting at various blogs.

A common denominator among many Lordship advocates is to steer discussions away from what they believe are the requirements for the reception of eternal life. They prefer to discuss what should be the natural results of salvation and/or their Calvinistic presuppositions, such as regeneration (salvation) before faith.


Lou

Lou Martuneac said...

JP:

Good question, for which they have no answer.


LM

Kevl said...

Hi JP and Lou,

That IS a great question. And a great Bible verse - is there any more famous?

John 3:14-17 NKJV
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


Twice repeated in so short and so famous a section of Scripture. Yet ever ignored by theological systems that would center God's Glory on Man's performance.

Kev

Kevl said...

Have you ever wondered why if God's sovereignty is destroyed if man has any level of free will at all that man's submission is thought to be required for Salvation to be attained?

Can such these thoughts co-exist in a mind without conflict?

Kev

jazzycat said...

JP,
The answer to your question is that justification is by faith not by regeneration. Regeneration enables a spiritually dead sinner to respond in faith. John 3:16 does not refute any of the five points and I have no problem with John 3:16 and affirm its literal and plain meaning.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


1) verse 12: Those who received Christ through faith are justified and adopted as children of God
2) verse 13: Explains how it happened by first telling how it didn’t happen. It didn’t happen by blood through ancestry. It didn’t happen by the will of the flesh, which is to say that unregenerate man cannot quicken his own nature. It didn’t happen by the will of man period. HOW did it happen? Those who believed were born of God. God had intervened and imparted spiritual life and a new nature (2 Cor 5:17). This is also shown in the following passages:

Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

God made these sinners alive who were dead and unresponsive.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

God acted and made dead sinners alive while they were still spiritually dead. Sinners do not make themselves alive and come to faith and then have God cause them to be born again and give them a new nature. This would be like a Doctor withholding treatment until a patient got well and then giving them the medicine they needed to be cured. No, without God’s regenerating cure of making sinners spiritually alive, sinners would not respond. However, all (100%) that God regenerates are brought to spiritual life and willingly respond in faith (John 6:37). Jesus compares regeneration to the wind in John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” No one knows where it comes from or where it is going. This rules out the view that man achieves faith and God responds by then being obligated to regenerate the new believer. This view contradicts Jesus and would amount to man getting himself born again by his own wise free will decision of faith. That is why Paul says in Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

If man controls his own regeneration, then Jesus would have said, “the wind blows where man decides by believing in me and we know it goes to all who believe in me.” But he didn’t. He said the wind like the Spirit goes where IT wishes.

Kevl said...

Hi Jazzy,

Thanks for the post.

John 1:13 born is εγεννηθησαν it is passive as you say, but it is in the Aorist tense. This is not indicating they were "born again" and then believed as you are describing. http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tense.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=1&verse=13&strongs=5777 It Aorist is not the same as the English "past tense" (though it is often rendered in English as such) it is a timeless thing. Past, future, present. The people back then were born again, the people now are being born again, the people in the future will be. This is not saying they were first born again, and then saved. This sentence in isolation might be interpreted that way, but the translators could be confident in using the simple past tense in English because -

Clearly the Apostle spells it out in verse 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God

Those who believed were given the right to become Children of God. And they are born again, not by the will of men (for what man can will a new birth and have it happen?) but by the will of God. For it is the will of God that all who believe in Him be reborn.

The next verse you quote refutes you as well. I'm just going to copy and paste what you quoted, and highlight one word.

Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

God regenerates those He's forgiven.

Again your order is exactly opposite. God does not give life without faith. God does not forgive sin without faith. Faith is not the product of rebirth and the forgiveness of sins. No, the forgiveness of sins and rebirth are God's responses to the sinner's faith.

Jazzy, this is what you wrote -

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

God acted and made dead sinners alive while they were still spiritually dead. Sinners do not make themselves alive and come to faith and then have God cause them to be born again and give them a new nature.


YOu are saying that Eph 2:4-5 is speaking of God imparting life into a spiritually dead sinner prior to them having faith. You said just above this quote God made these sinners alive who were dead and unresponsive. So dead sinners who are unresponsive are made alive in Eph 2:4-5 in order that they might respond.

These are your words, not mine. I have not added to them.

Here is the section of Scripture in just a bit more fullness. Let's let the Apostle complete the sentence and see if we can still fit your theology into it.

Eph 2:4-7 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So the unsaved, unresponsive sinner who has not yet placed his faith in Christ Our Lord is RAISED UP AND SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF MAJESTY!?!?

Jazzy, this is the height (excuse the pun) of insanity! Will God seat an unsaved person in the Heavenlies?

What purpose would faith serve the one who sits in Christ on His throne? What need of salvation does such a one have?

You stated This would be like a Doctor withholding treatment until a patient got well and then giving them the medicine they needed to be cured. No, without God’s regenerating cure of making sinners spiritually alive, sinners would not respond.

Are you baiting JP here? What need of a doctor does a perfectly healed man have? Me thinks you are playing a game I've been warned of before. Trying to get JP to quote Spurgeon are you?

You said Jesus compares regeneration to the wind in John 3:8

And then shockingly quoted the Scripture for yourself - and it plainly says something entirely different.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

No one knows where it comes from or where it is going. This rules out the view that man achieves faith and God responds by then being obligated to regenerate the new believer. This view contradicts Jesus and would amount to man getting himself born again by his own wise free will decision of faith.


No one knows where it comes from or where it is going is speaking of the Wind. "So it is" indicates the person who is born. Not the "rebirth." Check the Greek yourself.

The theology of reasonings can not stand examination. There are always the "this is why" and "it must be because" never simply - this is what it says.

You said That is why Paul says in Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

This is just exactly the same thing said in John 3. A man can not will to be saved. Only God saves. It is not of our will. So guess what... if it's not of our will then "submission" isn't the issue.

You closed with If man controls his own regeneration, then Jesus would have said, “the wind blows where man decides by believing in me and we know it goes to all who believe in me.” But he didn’t. He said the wind like the Spirit goes where IT wishes.

I'm not sure where you think JP said that a man "controls his own regeneration" Surely we have covered Scripture many times that says that man is born again from God's will and control. But again, check your exegesis on John 3 you're wrong about what the Lord was saying.

The Lord justifies those who believe. What must I do to be saved asked the Jailer. The Apostle answered "Believe."

He did not answer, you must be born again to be saved. No because God justifies sinners, and saves sinners, and makes new creations in Him.

Paul in Titus 3:3-7 repeats what John told us.

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

God saves in response to faith right? What must I do to be saved? Believe. If we are saved through regeneration, and we must "believe" to be saved then one must believe before they are regenerated.

Blessings in the Lord,

Kev

jazzycat said...

Kev,
We are in total agreement that God saves people who come to him in faith. Everyone who believes has eternal life. I fully agree with you on these passages. The debate is over God’s work of quickening sinners and enabling them to willingly come to faith. You say clearly the Apostle spells it out in v. 12 of John 1. True and I agree with that. However, in v. 13 it tells how v. 12 came about and as you say it could be interpreted my way.

Your objection to the Eph. 2:4-7 passage is in error because you ignore the (by grace you have been saved). While Paul does not go into great detail the by grace you have been saved includes the exercise of faith that comes after being made alive spiritually. Made alive spiritually, saved by grace which includes the gift of faith, and then v. 6. He gives greater detail on grace and faith in v. 8&9.

Romans 9:16: If your interpretation is correct and Paul is not speaking of unconditional election why do you suppose he begins the paragraph in v. 14 & 15 by saying, “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Why would he answer the anticipated objection about God being unfair if he were not talking about divine sovereign election? The answer is that he wouldn’t.

You also amazingly said this……” This is just exactly the same thing said in John 3. A man can not will to be saved. Only God saves. It is not of our will. So guess what... if it's not of our will then "submission" isn't the issue. I agree totally and this is election. I will give you a chance to explain this again since I am sure you did not meant to validate my view.

In Romans 8:30 he says all that are predestined are called and all that are called are justified. This either means that everyone is universally saved or that this call does not go out to 100% of people. In fact it would mean that this call is perfect and never fails since all that receive it are justified (saved). Please don’t give me the old absurd answer that God elects those he knows will choose him of their own free will. He certainly would not have to call people with a special call if he knew they were going to choose him.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Then you have John 6:37 and 6:65 basically saying the same thing

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

Thanks again for postng this article on the errors of Lordhip Salvation.

You cited Jazzy, when he wrote, “God acted and made dead sinners alive while they were still spiritually dead. Sinners do not make themselves alive and come to faith and then have God cause them to be born again and give them a new nature.”

Perfect case in point that I have made about his view of salvation. He believes the lost are regenerated, i.e., born again, apart from and before personal faith in Christ.

Later he wrote, “While Paul does not go into great detail the by grace you have been saved includes the exercise of faith that comes after being made alive spiritually.”

Here again Jazzy's view is the lost man has been made "spiritually alive" that comes before faith. “Spiritually alive” can mean only one thing, he has been regenerated, indwelt by the Holy Sprit and therefore, he has been born again. So, we have clear statements from Jazzy stating that he believes the lost are born again prior to and apart from personal faith in Christ.

I have two articles on this subject, which is at the heart of the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel. See Impossible Decision and Lordship's Out-of-Order Salvation.

The extra-biblical view of regeneration before faith in Christ is crucial to their view that a commitment to the performance of works is not a works-based message.


LM

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

I'm sure you note how Lordship/Calvinists steer these discussions away from the teaching of Lordship Salvation to their Calvinistic presuppositions.

The circle logic of five point Calvinism has been debated for centuries and will not be settled this side of Heaven. I always work toward refocusing them on to the LS teaching of what they believe are the requirements to be born again.


LM

Kevl said...

Jazzycat,

Just a quick reply.

You said However, in v. 13 it tells how v. 12 came about and as you say it could be interpreted my way.

No I said if one only looked at that verse in isolation, and only in English, that you might translate it that way... then I was clear about what the translators did. You could not "rightly" translate the verse the way you are interpreting.

I'm not all that interested in simply repeating posts.

Jazzy, I don't know where you get all the stuff you said about Eph 2. Paul does not write it. It seems to me that it is just justification and reasonings of a Calvinism protectionist.

You said I agree totally and this is election. I will give you a chance to explain this again since I am sure you did not meant to validate my view.

I do not worry about opposing people. I go for the Truth. You have taken what I have said and interepreted it through a theological system however.

When I say a person can not will their regeneration I'm saying just exactly that.. I'm not building a whole system on it. I can not simply say "I'm going to be regenerated" and it will happen. Of course not. I am not able to.

What is the ONLY thing I can do that will lead to my regeneration? Place my faith in Christ. I can not will my regeneration, but I can agree with the One who can.

Jazzy do you believe a person must submit to the Lordship of Christ in order to be saved?

Kev

jazzycat said...

Jazzy do you believe a person must submit to the Lordship of Christ in order to be saved?

No! If you truly understood the TULIP you would realize that salvation is 100% from God.

I always work toward refocusing them on to the LS teaching of what they believe are the requirements to be born again.

Wow, Lou continues to force his false view of what I believe! Regeneration is from God and is performed by God on those whom he has predestined to make spiritually alive by changing their hearts, which enables them to willingly come to faith in Jesus Christ. Humans respond to God in my view. God responds to humans in your view, which holds that God has willed that men who come to him in faith in and of themselves (boasting possible) will then be given a new heart through regeneration. You get well and then get the medicine. I don’t know if we are talking about the same definition of regeneration. My view is what 2 Cor. 5:17 teaches. I would be interested if your view is different.

Lou Martuneac said...
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Lou Martuneac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevl said...

Hi Jazzy,

Jazzy do you believe a person must submit to the Lordship of Christ in order to be saved?

No! If you truly understood the TULIP you would realize that salvation is 100% from God.


You do realize that this article has not mentioned TULIP or Calvinism at all right?

I believe I do fully understand TULIP, and I am aware of the claims made by those who subscribe to it. I do not agree with TULIP, however that is not what this article, "The Power Of God To Salvation" is about.

Wow, Lou continues to force his false view of what I believe!

This may sound like an insult, it's not.. but it may come of as though it is. I noticed over at Lou's blog that you were responding to things as though they were directed at you personally when they truly were not.

This article is about the requirements for Salvation. It is not about Calvinism, or about what you believe. It is about the false gospel of Lordship Salvation as popularized by men like John MacArthur and John Piper.

You said Regeneration is from God and is performed by God on those whom he has predestined to make spiritually alive by changing their hearts, which enables them to willingly come to faith in Jesus Christ.

I'm with you for the bolded part. But the rest is not born out in Scripture, and is plainly refuted as I have shown in the article and as has been shown by several men here in this thread... and by multitudes of people down through all of the Church era.

Humans respond to God in my view.

In ours as well. No one can come unless God draws them.

God responds to humans in your view

God doesn't respond to humans in your view? The Bible is full of examples of God responding to men....

in your view, which holds that God has willed that men who come to him in faith in and of themselves (boasting possible) will then be given a new heart through regeneration.

Any man who has faith in himself will perish.

See I can read reasonable sounding things in to your text, just like you do into Scripture. It's not proper though is it?

Men are required to put their faith in Christ. There is nothing in Scripture that says a man can not put their faith in God. In fact Scripture says because we have not responded to the truth we SEE and HOLD that we have no excuse - Rom 1.

There is nothing meritorious about believing that God has done all that is required to save us, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek after Him. There is no "making yourself better" by saying - I am dead, and He has paid the price and will make me alive.

You get well and then get the medicine.

Did you miss the definition of pisteuo (faith) found in the second paragraph of the article? There is no "getting well" in believing.

But you would say that one is saved (born again.. given "new life".. and even seated in the Heavenlies in Christ) and THEN they have faith and are what... saved? What exactly would a born again person need to be Eternally Saved from? They are already seated in Christ. They already have the New Nature... they already have Eternal Life... so what exactly would God be saving a person He's already given new life to from????

You asked I don’t know if we are talking about the same definition of regeneration. My view is what 2 Cor. 5:17 teaches. I would be interested if your view is different.

Yes 2 Cor 5:17 is regeneration. Notice the person here is already "in Christ" the new nature is that of Christ. What need of salvation would someone have if they were already "in Christ"? None. Therefore your view teaches that not even faith is required to be saved.

So, in your view, the Apostle lied in Acts 31. Because one "can not" believe until they are already reborn. So one can not believe until they are already saved. In which case believe and you will be saved is a lie. For one will be saved and then they will believe - according to your view anyway.

Kev

bp said...

Hi Kev,
I put your blog in my favorites many moons ago and check in once in awhile to read. And even though we’ve went around in circles more than once on topics like this, I thought I’d just give some food for thought here on just the following comment (I hope you’ll read it prayerfully):

Did you miss the definition of pisteuo (faith) found in the second paragraph of the article? There is no "getting well" in believing.,

I just wanted to say that there most certainly is a “getting well” if you will in believing if one believes verses that show clearly that all men are dead in sin and following the prince of the air. That they hate the light and do not come to it. John 3:19-21 says:

This is the judgment, the light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For whoever does wicked things (*everyone*) hates the light and does not come to the light lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out by God.

This verse clearly shows that man is running away from the light. Away from God, not towards Him. Our rebellion towards God and our love of sin is indeed a great sickness (if you want to call it that) which permeates our hearts through and through (Jer 17:9), and to turn away from that towards God and embrace His Son as Lord would most definitely be “getting well” in our mind/thoughts/heart. And maybe you’d say, “well, I agree that men are rebellious towards God, but I also believe that Christ draws all men unto Himself and so everyone has equal opportunity to believe Him.” But look at the contrast of this passage:

Whoever does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light

CONTRASTING

whoever does what is true comes to the light...


This verse is contrasting everyone (those who hates the light) with a specific people who come to the light, showing that the difference is carried out by God. In other words, it is emphasizing that the difference between those who hate the light and those who embrace it is GOD WROUGHT.

If one says that verses like this one and others like John 6:44 and 65 merely show that God does all the drawing first or men wouldn’t respond, they do not show the clear contrast and the reason behind the change in some and not in others. In other words, taking this John 3:19 passage, one could wrongly say, “Yes, all men run away from God, but God does the drawing of all men, therefore, it can be clearly seen that the one who comes to the light (his deeds) have been carried out by God.”

But this interpretation doesn’t work because if God does indeed draw all men the same, and some choose to come and some don’t, then the difference between those coming and those not coming can surely not be seen in God, but rather in man, since God did the same in all. (please don’t rush over this, but spend some time prayerfully thinking about it). As much as I know your heart Kev—that you want to give all glory to God, this certainly does give room for boasting and it robs the Lord of His rightful credit, glory and praise that is due to Him alone for turning such wretches around.

I believe with all my heart that the Bible teaches this. If I’m wrong, then I’m guilty of giving the credit to God for something man does. If you’re wrong, you’re guilty of giving the credit to man for something only God does.

Sincerely,
Bridget

Jonathan Perreault said...

Kev, I could not agree more with this statement you made:

"This what the Bible says, and, each and every Apostle Jesus Christ sent to bare testimony of Him, and His death, burial and resurrection. This Gospel truly is the power of God unto Salvation and here it is declared in detail by the Apostle Paul himself under inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. Can there be further debate among the Brethren if Scripture declares it?

1 Cor 15:1-11 'Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed,'”

JP

Jonathan Perreault said...

Jazzycate,

I noticed that you are confusing regeneration with conviction. The universal convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit preceeds faith in Christ:

"And He [the Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me". (John 16:8-9)

JP

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

Sorry I have been unable to comment lately.

In your last post to Jazzy you unraveled and disarmed his Calvinistic presuppositions. You wrote, “Therefore your view (Jazzy’s) teaches that not even faith is required to be saved.”

That is exactly what his regeneration before faith view teaches and he believes. I have been stating it this way: His regeneration before faith has a lost man born again prior to and apart from personal faith in Christ.

He uses very generic terms to mask and blunt the truth of their views. He uses pious terms like, “made alive spiritually.” That is quite ironic there because they believe the lost man is spiritually dead to the point that he can’t even respond to the Gospel until he has been regenerated (born again) first.

So when I read that Jazzy thinks the lost are “made alive spiritually,” before faith in Christ, Jazzy must believe that he is dealing with a rather lively corpse after all.


LM

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

The other comment you noted about his behavior was, “I do not agree with TULIP, however that is not what this article, ‘The Power Of God To Salvation’ is about.”

It is the pattern of many of these Reformed men to steer clear of discussing Lordship Salvation. LS is works based, so they retreat to their Calvinistic presuppositions to rationalize LS. Furthermore, they do this do draw attention away from LS because of the ease with which it can be biblically shown to be salvation conditioned on man’s promise to perform “good works” expected of a mature Christian. More than that, some will dodge questions about their personal position on LS. Jazzy is just such an example of this.

For several days I have posted one simple question him. He has been dodging the question I posted to him about his interpretation of James 4:7-10. I asked if he believes James 4:7-10 is an “invitation to (eternal) salvation?” That is MacArthur’s view, which is the Lordship Salvation gospel. Jazzy, won’t say whether or not he agrees with MacArthur’s interpretation, and he won’t even state one way or the other if he believes James 4:7-10 is an, “invitation to salvation.”

Jazzy, let’s see if you will answer that question here or continue your evasion. Jazzy: Is James 4:7-10 an “invitation to salvation…directed to those who are not saved?”

This is an example of the gamesmanship and lack of candor with which some of these men come to discussions. If you press Jazzy for an answer, which I have done, he keeps dodging and eventually responds with the type of combativeness and vitriol Antonio da Rosa (Sock Puppet: fg me) is infamous for.

Jazzy may never give an honest answer about LS, but at least we will have his evasiveness and diversion tactics on record.


LM

Kevl said...

Bridget! Hi! I haven't read your comment yet (so I might have to take this back hehe) but it's a blessing to hear from you!

I had to use John Piper's name in there because I've been using John MacArthur's a lot.. and I don't want give any sort of cause for someone to say that I have a vendetta against a man. It is funny that the first time in a year ( I think) that I use his name is when you stop in.

I've had a joyous year Sister, a tough one without doubt but God has shown His power and favor on my behalf. '

Bless you, and it is good to hear from you.

Kev

Kevl said...

JP,

I'm constantly amazed at how true Christians will argue about what Scripture "must" mean when what it "does" mean is plainly laid out.

I don't want to be the guy who's always pointing out the speck in my Brother's eye, but I trust that God will continue to lead me in all Truth. I'm closer to the Truth today than I was last year, and I hope and trust that it is the same with our Brethren.

Kev

Kevl said...

Sister Bridget,

I'm going to ponder the things you said but my first reaction is to your closing.


I believe with all my heart that the Bible teaches this. If I’m wrong, then I’m guilty of giving the credit to God for something man does. If you’re wrong, you’re guilty of giving the credit to man for something only God does.


One must first be convinced in their own heart, and I'm glad that you are not just spouting words that you "think" might be true. That is truly dangerous ground.

However, I think it might "sound" better the way you express your thought. But, I truly believe that any error is "missing the mark." If I am guilty of giving credit to man for something God has done then I am in error. But if you are denying man's responsibility you are guilty of error.

To the left or the right, one still strays from the Way and is guilty all the same. It is not better to stray one way than to the other.

And when such a view affects the Gospel, as this clearly does, then one must be absolutely pure to the Truth.

Kev

bp said...

That is funny, especially cuz I didn’t even know that you mentioned Piper in this posting. I have to admit that I didn’t read the whole article, but your comment that I quoted jumped out at me and I wanted to respond to that.

And as for error being error, I agree to a point, but my belief in the sovereignty of God in election in no way excuses man’s responsibility, and anyone who would come to that conclusion would be very much mistaken. So if I am mistaken in my beliefs, then I am guilty of giving credit to God for every aspect of man’s “decision” to believe and trust in Christ, which wouldn’t be wrong anyway based on John 3:27, which says that “a person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.” Repentance is given, faith is given, persevering grace is given and glorifying grace will be given. They are all from God.

But to claim (on the other hand) that God does not give repentance and faith to the believer, but it’s something he or she chooses to do or chooses not to do on their own, well that is not only giving credit to man for what he is incapable of doing, but it also very fearfully robs God of the credit for what He alone accomplishes in the hearts of sinners.

I appreciate you reading and considering my response Kev.

Bridget

Kevl said...

Lou,

Thanks for your comments. I know you are busy and especially holding down several conversations at once.

Bridget,

I will respond to your comments later today. My mom is in town, after several months of planning for each weekend she finally came! :)


Kev

Lou Martuneac said...

Hi Kev:

Thanks for the reply. We all have things going on that compete for our time. I am very close to sending the revised and expanded edition of my book back to the publisher.

This is a good article that I was pleased to link to.

It is noteworthy how those who seek to defend LS will, without exception, revert to the presuppositions of Calvinism to do so. That is to be expected because Lordship Salvation (LS), by admission of LS advocates, is rooted in Calvinism. I expanded on that connection in my book.

The problem is that when they shift the discussion to Calvinism it draws attention away from the egregious errors of LS. This is often by design to run interference for the teaching and teachers of LS.

The debate over Calvinism has gone on for centuries and will never be settled this side of Heaven. I always redirect discussions of LS back to LS to avoid getting bogged down on the debate over Calvinism and its extra-biblical implications.

God bless you,


Lou

Lou Martuneac said...

Can God-Given Faith be Defective?

The advocates of Lordship Salvation say it cannot.

Pastor George Zeller answers this penetrating question and reviews Lordship’s contradictory view.


LM

Kevl said...

Hi Lou,

I think you're very right.. we will not be able to reconcile all things in Scripture this side of Heaven. That doesn't give us permission to stop trying.. but it does show us that we need to be graceful with each other. And to not base our hope of knowing the truth of the Gospel on answering any system of theology, Calvinism or any other.

I've prepared a post to talk to Bridget about her ideas from Calvinism. Not that I want to foster further discussion on that subject - because I think that Lordship Salvation (though a strangely natural progression from Calvinism) is actually a separate topic- but because she asked me to.

Kev

Kevl said...

Hi Bridget, I’ve read your post and even given it a couple of days to beat around my head in prayer time and as I’ve been doing other things. I regret that I’m answering it during one of my “busy weeks”, ones which include a complete episode of TCC Radio being written and produced. LOL and THIS week I'm actually HOSTING the show, a first for me.

You said

I just wanted to say that there most certainly is a “getting well” if you will in believing if one believes verses that show clearly that all men are dead in sin and following the prince of the air.


Having faith is believing that something is true and depending on it. During the moment that a sinner is convicted and convinced and IS placing their faith in Christ they have not changed. They are still sinners, slaves to sin. They are simply aware for the first time that Christ paid for their sins and that He will save them. They have not stopped sinning. They have not promised to be a good person. They are not seeking to be the next great disciple. They are placing their faith in the Savior to save them. They have not “gotten well” they have not “improved” they are simply seeking Salvation. No matter what else they may want or thirst for it is Eternal Life that the sinner is most thirsty for and that must first be satisfied.


That they hate the light and do not come to it. John 3:19-21

*snip*

This verse clearly shows that man is running away from the light. Away from God, not towards Him. Our rebellion towards God and our love of sin is indeed a great sickness (if you want to call it that) which permeates our hearts through and through (Jer 17:9), and to turn away from that towards God and embrace His Son as Lord would most definitely be “getting well” in our mind/thoughts/heart.


Faith is not “turning away from Sin and towards God.” Faith is the belief and dependence that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day and was seen in the flesh there after. If faith was a stopping of sin, and a seeking to be like God then there would be a “getting well” or an improvement. But alas then faith would be works. And Salvation would not be “apart from works.” Calvinism seems to get inserted into the conversation.. but it is the presupposition of what Repentance is instead of the Biblical meaning of it that necessitates Lordship Salvation in the minds of the Additionist.


And maybe you’d say, “well, I agree that men are rebellious towards God, but I also believe that Christ draws all men unto Himself and so everyone has equal opportunity to believe Him.”


I know that God has been propitiated for all the sins of the World and so Salvation is available for all. I would not say that everyone has “equal opportunity” I DO believe in God’s election and specific drawing of the Elect. However this is not to the exclusion of the non-elect.


But look at the contrast of this passage:

Whoever does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light

CONTRASTING

whoever does what is true comes to the light...

This verse is contrasting everyone (those who hates the light) with a specific people who come to the light, showing that the difference is carried out by God.


The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. All men are sinners, none do good – no not one. So “whoever does good comes to the light” doesn’t mean that people who are doing good are saved. IE God doesn’t make people good so they can be saved because the Bible says there are no good people. The theology of regeneration prior to Salvation breaks down at every point.


As much as I know your heart Kev—that you want to give all glory to God,


Thanks for publicly acknowledging this. Especially in the middle of this topic.

this certainly does give room for boasting and it robs the Lord of His rightful credit, glory and praise that is due to Him alone for turning such wretches around.

God does get the glory and the credit for doing what He does. But there is a DRAMATIC problem with the theology that says repentance is “turning around.” That’s not what the Bible says. God says that He makes ‘New Creations’ of the people He saves. He doesn’t reform the sinner, the sinner is baptized into Christ’s death and made a new – born again – as a New Creation in Christ. There is no “turning away from sin” there is either death and rebirth or only death. A person does not become progressively better and then can be saved. A person becomes aware of how evil they are and how Good God is and that He can save them. They TRUST this or they don’t. The Gospel is “received” 1 Cor 15:1 and 1 Cor 15:3

Bless You Sister,
Kev

Lou Martuneac said...

Hi Kev:

I appreciate your desire to engage these important discussions.

Yours in Him,


Lou

bp said...

Hi Kev,
I want to comment on two things you said in your last comment:

Faith is not “turning away from Sin and towards God.”

Acts 26:18,20
“…I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.”

These verses clearly show that it is indeed a turning from our sin to God when we come to Christ by faith (btw, don’t let the latter part of that verse go unnoticed). In 1 Thes 1:9 Paul also writes to the Thessalonian church, speaking of their conversion:

“For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols *(sin) to serve the living and true God.” *(Parenthesis mine)

It’s clear throughout Scripture Kev that as a result of the fall and our own sin, all men turn away from God to serve idols, wanting nothing to do with God. So to have a change of mind and will to even turn to God in faith is the significant, central part of our healing. I could go on to more verses in the old and new testaments, but I think these show it clearly.

Other quote:
A person does not become progressively better and then can be saved. A person becomes aware of how evil they are and how Good God is and that He can save them.

A person who becomes “aware of how evil they are and how Good God is” HAS become progressively better. Is it not better to humbly turn from idols to the Living God Kev? A big part of our sickness is that we love sin and hate God. We worship the created rather than the Creator. To change our minds is HUGE! Do you really want to give credit for that to yourself when Scripture clearly shows that GOD changed your mind?

Please spend some more time studying John 3. “For those who do wicked things (again, every man) hate the light and DO NOT COME TO THE LIGHT…but those who do what is true come to the light that it may be clearly seen his deeds have been wrought in God.” What “deeds” is John talking about? The deeds of turning from Christ-hating, sin-loving darkness, to Christ-loving, sin-hating LIGHT! THAT deed is wrought in God Kev. Please spend more time studying and praying about this. I wouldn’t want you to get to heaven and have God ask you why you turned to the light, when so many others didn’t. What would your answer be?

I think this is why Lordship Salvation is so greatly misunderstood. As a person who believes the Bible teaches reformed theology, I don’t see Lordship as the sinner getting his act together and confessing every sin he ever committed and vowing to never sin again. I see what a wretch I am even now! I think the only reason Paul could say that he was the greatest of sinners is cuz I wasn’t born yet! Read some of the puritan prayers and see that they knew what sinners they still were.

Here’s the crux: Lordship Salvation says that God takes wretched sinners like me and takes out our hard, impenitent hearts and gives us hearts of flesh. He brings us from death to life the way He did Lazarus. He takes away our blindness and gives us eyes to see the TRUTH so that we naturally and irresistably turn from the sin that we once loved to the gospel with faith. We forsake the path toward idols and rebellion towards God and turn the other direction to embrace God’s way through Christ and when this happens, there is foreverafter a sanctification process that leads us to glory! Is it a perfect following? No. But because God gave it, He will complete it! Amen!

I hope and pray that you’ll consider this further, brother.

Bridget

Kevl said...

Bridget, I don't have a lot of time to reply but I want to quickly. Sorry, I have to write, produce, and host the radio show this week and I'm just a tad busy. :)

You brought up Acts 26

These are strong verses, for sure. However, do they spell out the requirements for Salvation? Where does it say "do this to be saved" or any variation in regard to these statements? Please converse about what must be done to RECEIVE Salvation - not what ought to happen afterwards.

Verse 20 αλλα τοις εν δαμασκω πρωτον και ιεροσολυμοις εις πασαν τε την χωραν της ιουδαιας και τοις εθνεσιν απηγγελλον μετανοειν και επιστρεφειν επι τον θεον αξια της μετανοιας εργα πρασσοντας

can be seen broken down here http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Act&chapter=26&verse=20&version=KJV#20

You'll see that the workd kai "και" is used. One is to repent μετανοιας and turn to God επιστρεφειν επι τον θεον, doing works fitting of repentance αξια της μετανοιας εργα πρασσοντας. The "turning to God" nor the "works" are repentance.

One ought to repent, and turn to God doing works meet for repentance.

Clearly this is not simply the Gospel, but also Discipleship. Are they not simply obeying the Great Commission? In preaching the Gospel and making Disciples?

Before anyone says that I didn't read Verse 18 your own quote includes the answer -

I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

This is not open your eyes so you can turn from darkness to light, and by that turning receive the forgiveness of sins and by that forgiveness receive a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Notice, that these that those who are saved will join are "sanctified by faith" in Christ. Not by their "turning from sin."

Those who have their eyes opened by a preacher - Jesus said in verse 17 now I send you to open their eyes can now turn from darkness to light. But they have already seen. They already have faith.

You said A person who becomes “aware of how evil they are and how Good God is” HAS become progressively better. Is it not better to humbly turn from idols to the Living God Kev?

You are inserting Calvinistic presuppositions into even my writing. To be saved one puts their faith in Christ. The Gospel is received 1 Cor 15:1,3

A person who turns from sin to serve God has begun to walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:16

Bridget you said Here’s the crux: Lordship Salvation says that God takes wretched sinners like me and takes out our hard, impenitent hearts and gives us hearts of flesh. He brings us from death to life the way He did Lazarus. He takes away our blindness and gives us eyes to see the TRUTH so that we naturally and irresistably turn from the sin that we once loved to the gospel with faith. We forsake the path toward idols and rebellion towards God and turn the other direction to embrace God’s way through Christ and when this happens, there is foreverafter a sanctification process that leads us to glory! Is it a perfect following? No. But because God gave it, He will complete it! Amen!

When do you have assurance of your Salvation Sister? How do you know? If your salvation depends on your turning and your turning is not perfect how can your salvation be perfect? If your salvation depends on your turning then it is dependent on you and not God. If, as you claim, that God is responsible for every thing about your salvation experience from His promise to your response and if Salvation of the Sinner is how God gets Glory (as is the Reformed mantra) then why is this salvation so very imperfect? If God is the author and perfecter of your faith, and this is taken in the Lordship Salvation view then how could your faith not be perfect?

If God regenerates a person so that they will have faith.. why does He not regenerate them so they can actually walk the life Lordship Salvation demands a person be willing to live?

What a proposition that God would demand absolute submission, obedience and a promise of faithfulness but then never give you the ability to actually do fulfill it. Do those who try to come to God by means of obedience only have to half-heartedly promise? I mean it's not like it could ever be a TRUE promise.. or even TRUE submission.. because clearly by your own testimony you are still one bound by sin. So you didn't REALLY have to submit.. or obey.. you just had to what exactly?

the beautiful truth is that God has opened the Gate. He has torn the Veil. Any may enter in right now. Salvation is received, not earned, and surely not deserved. No sinner could ever make themselves better, or even become better so that they could be saved. Even the regenerated Christian is exhorted throughout the NT to flea the power of sin, to walk by the Spirit. What wasted pages they would be if you couldn't be a Christian until you had already turned from Sin in order to be saved.

Salvation is of the Lord. He has earned it. He alone is Good. I am not good. I have not become good. But I am perfect in Christ. My flesh just as evil as it ever ways, my soul set free.

Kev

bp said...

”I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.”

Why would Paul be discipling them before they even repented? Don’t forget that he goes on to say, “That is why the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me.” They obviously were not open to the gospel. Why would he be trying to disciple them?

I don’t understand how you can separate “repentance”, or a change of mind, from turning away from sin toward God. Our minds are not some autonomous entity, but our minds and hearts and wills are intertwined. What we believe in our minds influence our heart’s affections which influence our will to act. And so to say that we can be dead in trespasses and sins one minute, following the course of this world, the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2) and then hear the gospel and believe it (have a change of mind), but that this doesn’t necessarily change our heart’s loyalty to sin and satan at that moment…this not only makes the mind out to be some autonomous entity that it’s not, but it also makes a mockery of the power of God in us.

When we recognize our sin and the truth of the gospel and believe it, there is a shift going on within us at the same time….a turning from what we used to believe and love and were loyal to, to believing in Christ, loving Him and being loyal to Him (no matter how imperfectly our flesh--not God’s lack of power--performs this). I don’t see this as a “good work” that I have to perform in order to be saved because it is God-wrought. How can I take credit for what God has done in me? I do believe that regeneration comes before faith, but that it happens almost simultaneously. In Ezek 36, God tells Isaiah to tell the rebellious, idol-loving people of Israel:

“I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”

It is no different for every rebellious sinner who was ever saved. God does this work of new birth WHILE we are dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph 2:5), not after we get smart and reform our thinking. If anyone believes in a works- based salvation it is not me, but you Kev. You say that it is not a work to believe and receive Jesus by faith, but tell me who gets the credit for your change of mind? How is it that you and I are so smart Kev? You don’t think it takes wisdom to make such a decision? Maybe it just takes humility...ok, then how did you get so humble? Can you see how this absolutely does leave room for boasting? I know you go to great lengths to try to show that this change of mind is nothing to boast about, but Kev, come on! This change of mind you had is the difference between you going to heaven and another soul going to hell. You both had the same grace given. You chose the right path. I’d say that’s pretty significant. And you simply cannot give credit to God for your change of mind, and that’s a very serious thing.

I believe my change of mind happened because God gave me a new heart and His Holy Spirit, which released me from my enslavement to sin and turned my heart’s affections towards Himself, causing me to forsake sin and obey the gospel by believing in and at the same time turning to Christ.

“Turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”—Is 45:22

“Please think about why you believed/believe the gospel when so many others refuse every day Kev.

You said:

What a proposition that God would demand absolute submission, obedience and a promise of faithfulness but then never give you the ability to actually do fulfill it.

Why would God demand that the Israelites submit to and obey the 10 commandments when He knew they couldn’t obey it perfectly? And even if you say, "that's different. They were already His people", it still remains true that God gives commands to believers and unbelivers alike that they cannot perfectly obey. This is to show us our inability and need for Him. The fullness of my submission has already been fulfilled in Christ. He is my perfect righteousness.

My salvation doesn’t depend on my turning, it depends on God’s regenerating grace which enables my faith and turning to Christ at conversion and enables my continuing faith and walk with Him till the day I die. God’s salvation is not imperfect, but the flesh that still lives in me IS. And as long as it’s still here the battle goes on.

But then God knows who His sheep are because He chose them and rescued them out of their enslavement to sin and satan. And His sheep will continue to be loyal to Him no matter how much the world, the flesh and the devil may lead him astray for a time. When Jesus said in Luke 9:23, “whoever would come after me, must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”, do you think He meant we had to deny ourselves perfectly and follow Him perfectly? Only Christ did that. But it is a following nonetheless. I was once walking away from God and wanted nothing to do with Him and at conversion I recognized the truth, believed it and turned around to follow God through Christ. I may wander away from the Shepherd and get myself into trouble too often, but I know I’ll continue on the path because God will make sure of it! He doesn’t desert His sheep.

My confidence is in God’s beginning, on-going and final grace towards me in Christ, and I exhort you brother, to spend more time prayerfully considering your beginning.

Love in Christ,
Bridget

Kevl said...

Hello Bridget,

I have written a reply to your post that goes mostly point for point. It’s very long and based on previous history I’m not convinced it will move you and I forward. However, I will post it so others can see it. There is value in discussing these points but I don’t want to get stuck in some side topics and miss the important topic with you.

The Lordship Salvation issue with you is a problem of circular logic. Lordship Salvation makes hard demands because anyone who is regenerated will respond to those demands and so one must be regenerated prior to salvation so they can meet those demands. The entire premise is built on what is “reasonable” to the person who approaches Scripture for that point of view.

And this isn’t just something that messes up the Gospel presentation, it also messes with Christian Assurance. Look at what you said;

My salvation doesn’t depend on my turning, it depends on God’s regenerating grace which enables my faith and turning to Christ at conversion and enables my continuing faith and walk with Him till the day I die……

……My confidence is in God’s beginning, on-going and final grace towards me in Christ, and I exhort you brother, to spend more time prayerfully considering your beginning.


Sister, the only salvation available is dependant on, and only on Christ’s finished work on the Cross. My confidence and assurance is based SOLELY on the FACT that Christ died for my sins in accordance with the Scriptures, was buried and rose again the third day in accordance with the Scriptures and that He was seen by more than 500 people in the flesh. By this I am assured of my salvation. It is my confidence. It is my refuge. It is what I depend on. It is the Gospel by which I am saved.

My faith has nothing to do with me. My faith is in Christ alone. Not in the quality of my performance, no matter if it is my performance or God’s, and not in my commitment. I don't have faith in my believing, I have faith in Christ. I believe the Gospel. It is true. There is no measure of the quality of my belief. I either believe it or I don’t. The Gospel is either received or rejected. I have received it. If one can brag about receiving something.. let him.. I seen no cause or opportunity to brag and I don’t even see this rabbit trail as an issue in Scripture so I’m not concerned about it. Frankly I think it’s a made up accusation that sounds offensive enough to distract the discussion from the truth. Just like when someone says abortion is evil and the response is you must hate women then. It has nothing to do with the topic, but it sure is an effective way to stop the discussion from being about what it should be.

Kev

Kevl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevl said...

Hello Bridget, this post will be very long. It contains most of what I wrote in my last and much more. I hope, if you respond that you’ll read it all first. There are some very tough points in it.

You stated Acts 26:20 as this ”I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

What translation is this? I didn’t check them all but every translation I checked, EVEN the ESV which has a Lordship Salvation bent didn’t render the verse that way. The word you render as “prove” is prasso or “to be busy with.” One ought not handled the Word of God so loosely. Let us get our theology from Scripture instead of inserting it into Scripture.

You asked Why would Paul be discipling them before they even repented? Again you’re adding what isn’t in the Text to the Text. All Paul said was this but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

But you continue with Don’t forget that he goes on to say, “That is why the Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me.” They obviously were not open to the gospel. Why would he be trying to disciple them?

Maybe you missed that it was the “Jews” who seized him. Not the ones he had been discipling. It’s constantly amusing to me how Calvinists (here’s that word again…. sigh) play with the concept of all. When the Text clearly says “all” with no modifiers it can’t ever really mean “all” but any chance they get to insert the concept of “all” when it will help them they do.. even when the Text does not have the concept of all in it. IE here. Clearly Paul was not seized by the ones he was discipling… He was seized by the Jews. Because to them Christ crucified is a stumbling block, they are offended by it.

Imagine your offense if I came into your church preaching to the people and making converts. You might even seize me…. And if someone wrote the history of it down and said I went in there preaching the Gospel and discipling people and the members of the church seized me and tossed me out. Would that mean the people I was discipling seized me out?

I don’t understand how you can separate “repentance”, or a change of mind, from turning away from sin toward God.

I don’t “separate” them. They are two different things. One is a normal result of the other when the person is walking by the Spirit, but they are not the same thing.

Our minds are not some autonomous entity, but our minds and hearts and wills are intertwined. What we believe in our minds influence our heart’s affections which influence our will to act.

And this is how you interpret Scripture? This is not gaining REVELATION from Scripture it is “interpreting” Scripture within your own worldview.

And so to say that we can be dead in trespasses and sins one minute,

See what happened there. I’m not sure you can, I know how hard it is to see what we write from an outside view. But look at it. Because of what I think about the human make up Scripture must mean this…..

……this not only makes the mind out to be some autonomous entity that it’s not, but it also makes a mockery of the power of God in us.

So all your loyalties are to God and only God right? Your mind is not that simple Sister. And secondly inserting the presupposition that Regeneration happens before Salvation to prove your point, and that point (not Scripture) is the only reason to believe that Regeneration happens before Salvation is a perfect case study of Circular Logic.

We can talk about what a saved believer ought to do, but here and now we’re talking about what a Sinner must do in order to be Saved.

When we recognize our sin and the truth of the gospel and believe it, there is a shift going on within us at the same time….a turning from what we used to believe and love and were loyal to, to believing in Christ, loving Him and being loyal to Him

That sounds SO reasonable.. it’s exactly what a religion would say. It’s reasonable but it’s not what the Gospel says. The Gospel says we receive Salvation. We don’t earn it. We don’t become (by any means) worthy of Salvation. We don’t LOVE to be saved. Scripture is clear, we love because we have been loved.

(no matter how imperfectly our flesh--not God’s lack of power--performs this).

This is always where the performance based salvation message fails to even pass the test of being reasonable. Even without the Truth of Scripture the message falls apart here. If Salvation comes by submission, obedience, love, and loyalty then it must come by TRUE submission, obedience, love and loyalty. If Salvation demands these things, and they don’t exist in truth then the person can not be saved.

Thankfully this is not what Scripture shows.

I don’t see this as a “good work” that I have to perform in order to be saved because it is God-wrought. How can I take credit for what God has done in me?

So a “true good work” would be something you could take credit for?

Mat 5:16 Eph 2:10 and the whole Judgment Seat of Christ thing would kinda make me reconsider that if I were you. But thank you for making that statement it is the clearest I’ve seen a Lordship Salvation proponent display how they mentally get around the works they preach for Salvation. It can’t be works if God does it through me.

I do believe that regeneration comes before faith, but that it happens almost simultaneously. In Ezek 36, God tells Isaiah to tell the rebellious, idol-loving people of Israel:

“I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

It is no different for every rebellious sinner who was ever saved.


Except that this is not a Salvation message, it’s a promise to Israel. And except that every rebellious sinner who’s ever been saved has not been the recipient of this promise ….and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

In the post I am replying to, you have again assured me that your flesh still has some amount of rule in your life. That is not the PERFECTION that God has promised Israel.

If anyone believes in a works- based salvation it is not me, but you Kev. You say that it is not a work to believe and receive Jesus by faith, but tell me who gets the credit for your change of mind?

Is there “credit” for changing your mind? Have I, claimed credit for changing my mind? Have I ever praised a man for his change of mind? Have I ever sought praise for changing my mind? This is just a trumped up charge that has no basis in reality. When are you going to stop punching your husband, now or after I call the police? THAT is the same level of question. It is not an argument it is a intentional rabbit trail.

How is it that you and I are so smart Kev? You don’t think it takes wisdom to make such a decision? Maybe it just takes humility...ok, then how did you get so humble?

Are you saying that it takes smarts, wisdom and/or humility to see yourself as needing to be saved? Does Scripture tell you this or just your reasoning?

Does the person in the water drowning need to be smarter than the next man to grab the floatation device? Does he need to be more wise? More humble? Or does he just have to know he’s drowning (in Scripture it says be thirsty)?

Can you see how this absolutely does leave room for boasting?

Should I change what Scripture says because someone might pervert it?

I know you go to great lengths to try to show that this change of mind is nothing to boast about, but Kev, come on! This change of mind you had is the difference between you going to heaven and another soul going to hell. You both had the same grace given. You chose the right path. I’d say that’s pretty significant.

Breathing is the difference between life and death Sister. Can you boast that you breathe? It is not the affect of something that gives you rights to boast. A person can boast about anything… I hear people boast because they are tall! Like that has anything to do with anything THEY did… people can boast that they are saved… they can.. it’s not right and there is no reason to boast in this.. they are not justified to boast but they can do it. But just because a person can pervert truth and boast about how tall he is doesn’t mean we can’t allow tall people before God. If someone wants to boast that they changed their mind and God saved them.. wow I guess that’s their deal. However, as I said above this is all intentional misstepping to avoid the TRUTH of what Scripture says.

And you simply cannot give credit to God for your change of mind, and that’s a very serious thing.

How is that a “very serious thing”? What warning does Scripture give on this subject?

I believe my change of mind happened because God gave me a new heart and His Holy Spirit, which released me from my enslavement to sin and turned my heart’s affections towards Himself, causing me to forsake sin and obey the gospel by believing in and at the same time turning to Christ.

That’s good for you. It’s what “you believe” however, do the facts and does Scripture bare this out? Has God really turned your heart and affections towards Him? Or is that a process that is still going on? Heb 12 Have you truly “forsaken sin” or are you still prone to it (think of the last two posts you’ve made). I hope you have “obeyed the Gospel” see the article that this thread is under to see that defined by Scripture, not reasoning.

“Turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”—Is 45:22

The NKJV says 22 “ Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

And this goes along with the OT picture of our sin on the Cross Num 21:8-9 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived. 2 Chro 2:12 O our God, will You not judge them? For we have no power against this great multitude that is coming against us; nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are upon You.” Michah 7:7 Therefore I will look to the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation;  My God will hear me.

And to show that these things ARE what Christ was talking about here are His words.

John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


You quoted me
You said:

What a proposition that God would demand absolute submission, obedience and a promise of faithfulness but then never give you the ability to actually do fulfill it. ***INSERT you did not include my context, of requiring this first in order to save the person END INSERT***

Why would God demand that the Israelites submit to and obey the 10 commandments when He knew they couldn’t obey it perfectly? And even if you say, "that's different. They were already His people", it still remains true that God gives commands to believers and unbelivers alike that they cannot perfectly obey. This is to show us our inability and need for Him. The fullness of my submission has already been fulfilled in Christ. He is my perfect righteousness.


Actually the 10 Commandments are a completely different case than the Gospel. Because righteousness didn’t come “by” the 10 Commandments, and no one was ever saved by following them or even by trying to follow them. God does give impossible commands to show our inability to follow them that is the point of the Law. The Law brings death. It is the LAW that shows us our weakness and need. Not regeneration. The 10 Commandments were not a call to salvation. They were added to make sin a transgression, according to the Apostle Paul and I’ll take his word for it.

So again, if God is in fact saying “submit and be saved” and one does not submit then since God can not lie He will not save someone unless they submit. Since I have yet to find a single person except Jesus Christ who has ever submitted to God I wonder who could be saved, if Salvation comes by submission.

My salvation doesn’t depend on my turning, it depends on God’s regenerating grace which enables my faith and turning to Christ at conversion and enables my continuing faith and walk with Him till the day I die. God’s salvation is not imperfect, but the flesh that still lives in me IS. And as long as it’s still here the battle goes on.

Double speak. If your salvation depends on your turning (no matter who or Who enables/makes you turn) then your salvation depends on the quality of your walk. Your faith is in your performance, not in Christ’s performance. If your performance is not perfect then how can the result of it be perfect? Does God say, mostly submit, or submit just a bit and I’ll save you perfectly?

But then God knows who His sheep are because He chose them and rescued them out of their enslavement to sin and satan. And His sheep will continue to be loyal to Him no matter how much the world, the flesh and the devil may lead him astray for a time.

Shame that doesn’t play out for the heroes of Faith mentioned in the Bible.

When Jesus said in Luke 9:23, “whoever would come after me, must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”, do you think He meant we had to deny ourselves perfectly and follow Him perfectly?

Yes I do. I suggest you read Lou’s article. This reply is already longer than some books I’ve read. Be sure to read the long conversation with Mark Pierson who discusses such verses as this with me. I don't want to repeat that conversation again so soon.http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/07/summary-of-lordship-salvation-on-single.html

But this is not a call to Salvation. It is a call to discipleship. And yes every Christian will be discipled by the Holy Spirit but it is not discipleship to lead someone to Christ. Because getting saved has nothing to do with discipleship. One is “saved” by Grace apart from works.

I may wander away from the Shepherd and get myself into trouble too often, but I know I’ll continue on the path because God will make sure of it! He doesn’t desert His sheep.

If deserting means that you wander off into sin, that you are somehow assured of “finishing well”.. then there are MANY people who were obviously saved who God “deserted” Soloman not being the least of them. I think you start with a view point and find it in the Text you read. I’ve shown this several times in this post alone. I know these are tough words but this is the Gospel we’re talking about.

My confidence is in God’s beginning, on-going and final grace towards me in Christ, and I exhort you brother, to spend more time prayerfully considering your beginning.

Sister, I do not WANT to be argumentative. However, My confidence is SOLELY in the FACT that Christ died for my sins in accordance with the Scriptures, was buried and rose again the third day in accordance with the Scriptures and that He was seen by more than 500 people in the flesh. By this I am assured of my salvation. It is my confidence. It is my refuge. It is what I depend on. It is the Gospel by which I am saved.


God Bless,

Kev

bp said...

Boy, this sure brings back memories. :) So many things to respond to, that it seems overwhelming, and I don’t want to keep making our responses longer and longer. But I do want to respond to a couple main points you made. Incidentally, supporting my points by quoting Scripture with you has been and is difficult because I’m aware of your beliefs in the separation or distinction between Israel and the Church and so I always think, even as I’m responding with Scripture, “well, I know that he won’t interpret it that way anyway.” It kind of makes me feel defeated before I start.

But in regards to Lordship, my original comment wasn’t even about that, and I don’t know that we’ll ever see eye to eye this side of heaven, so I want to comment on a few other things you said. You quoted me:

My confidence is in God’s beginning, on-going and final grace towards me in Christ…

And:

My salvation doesn’t depend on my turning, it depends on God’s regenerating grace which enables my faith and turning to Christ at conversion and enables my continuing faith and walk with Him till the day I die……

I can see how you might interpret that to mean that I’m saying my confidence is in something other than Christ’s shed blood, but then I could do the same with you Kev. But first, let me clarify and say that when I said that my confidence is in God’s beginning, on-going and final grace towards me in Christ (actually His grace will never be final), what I am meaning by that is this: All that Christ purchased on the Cross by His death, burial and resurrection, came/is coming to me as a result of the Father’s grace toward me and therefore is dependent on that grace. His grace in predestining me before the foundation of the world for adoption (Eph 1:5), His grace in drawing me to His Son (John 6:44), His grace in giving me faith to believe (Eph 2:9), His grace in raising me up and seating me with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6), His grace in keeping me persevering (Phil 1:6), and His grace in presenting me faithful before the presence of His glory with great joy (Jude 24).

This does NOT mean, however, that my confidence in being presented before Him Holy and perfect , cleared of all my sins doesn’t rely TOTALLY on the substitutionary atonement of Christ on my behalf. IT DOES!It can come in no other way! Christ is my perfect righteousness. He lived the perfect life I can’t live. On the cross He took the wrath and blame that I deserve and shed His blood for my sins---and He rose victorious over death and sin that I might live! Here’s the point I was trying to get across but was maybe missed:

Yes, my confidence for the eradication of my sins and God’s pardon rests in Jesus alone. But my confidence that this salvation by faith is mine and will continue to be mine is not dependant on the fact that I made or continue to make a decision to believe, but on God’s grace in giving me the faith (at conversion) and continuing (on-going) faith to believe. I hope you can see the distinction.

And so this is why I said before that I could also show that your confidence is in something other than Christ. Because even though you say (and I believe you) that you are trusting in Christ alone, by faith alone for the forgiveness of your sins, your faith in Jesus Christ (and therefore your salvation) is dependent on your “decision” to believe.

Can you see what I’m saying? You said above, “Have I, claimed credit for changing my mind?” Don’t you see Kev—it doesn’t matter if you “claim” credit for it or not. Your beliefs clearly show that you are the one who ultimately made this life or death decision to believe, therefore some of the credit for your faith (and therefore your salvation) goes to you, period. And to say it’s not in Scripture, therefore it’s not true is not fair. That’s like saying the law of gravity is not in the Bible, therefore it’s not true. 2+2=4 isn’t in the Bible, so it’s not true.

I’m trying to repeat the same thing in many different ways so that you can clearly see what I mean, so bear with me and let me try to simplify it one more time: Both your faith and my faith in Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of our sins (and therefore our salvation), is dependant on our decision to believe (no faith, no salvation). But the question is: What is our decision to believe dependant on? I say God’s grace alone. You say God’s grace + your free will choice. So which one of us is believing that our salvation is dependant upon ourselves and something we do?

Anyway, I hope that’s clearer. I could go on and reply to a dozen other things you’ve said, but again, I didn’t mean for this to turn into this big ongoing debate on Lordship…just wanted to give you food for thought. You said that this subject was a rabbit trail and a made up accusation to distract from the truth. Well, I’m sure you know that I don’t think that at all.

But I appreciate you reading and responding to my comments. I sincerely hope that you’ll read my response again and prayerfully consider it. And I want you to know that I did read your responses all the way through, (usually several times). And I have prayed for both of us. Lord, if I’m wrong, please show me! (so I’m not as closed-minded as you might think). But I do have to say that the longer I’m a Bible-reading Christian, the more solidified these beliefs become).

God bless you in Christ brother,
Bridget
p.s. My Acts 26:20 was from the NIV. Memorized it a long time ago.

bp said...

Kev, I was thinking about something I said in my last post and want to clarify. It is stated in the Bible many times and in many different ways that our faith is a result of God’s grace and is given by Him. But it is unfair to say that if the Bible doesn't specifically say, “If you are believing that your faith is a result of God’s grace + a decision you freely made, then you are taking partial credit for your salvation" then it's not true. Anybody can see that if a + b = c, then both a and b are responsible and deserve credit for producing c.

Kevl said...

Hi Bridget,

You said Boy, this sure brings back memories. :) So many things to respond to, that it seems overwhelming, and I don’t want to keep making our responses longer and longer.

I agree. In a "normal" face to face conversation it gets narrowed down to points and moves through topics... but in text it seems like everything has to be written about at once... not the most efficient means of communication. But as long as we are both aware - and we are - then we'll do well in not getting offended. :)

I'll TRY to narrow things down even more than you did. But ya.. we'll see how well I can manage. :)

When I was asking about and making statements on our confidence I was getting at our confidence for Salvation. I too have confidence in God's Grace to work throughout my life. But my Salvation is not dependent on His continued work in my life, my Salvation is dependent on His "finished work on the Cross" to make use of a common phrase.

From my article above, 1 Cor 15:1 "in which you stand" is in the Perfect Tense and Indicative meaning it's a statement of fact that can not change. My standing, my Eternal Security is based on the Gospel not God's continued working in my life. That is what I was getting at, about where my confidence is and why. My salvation is totally and solely dependent on what Christ did on the Cross. Not on it's affect in or on me, or how my life plays out.... or anything like that. I'm saved, and that's a done issue, because Christ died on my behalf and rose again.

OK on to the "rabbit trail" (smile you know you want to!) I'll tie it together for you so it doesn't look like as much of a distraction as I think the topic is.

You said I can see how you might interpret that to mean that I’m saying my confidence is in something other than Christ’s shed blood, but then I could do the same with you Kev......

....Yes, my confidence for the eradication of my sins and God’s pardon rests in Jesus alone. But my confidence that this salvation by faith is mine and will continue to be mine is not dependent on the fact that I made or continue to make a decision to believe, but on God’s grace in giving me the faith (at conversion) and continuing (on-going) faith to believe. I hope you can see the distinction

And so this is why I said before that I could also show that your confidence is in something other than Christ. Because even though you say (and I believe you) that you are trusting in Christ alone, by faith alone for the forgiveness of your sins, your faith in Jesus Christ (and therefore your salvation) is dependent on your “decision” to believe.....

....Don’t you see Kev—it doesn’t matter if you “claim” credit for it or not. Your beliefs clearly show that you are the one who ultimately made this life or death decision to believe, therefore some of the credit for your faith (and therefore your salvation) goes to you, period......

....I say God’s grace alone. You say God’s grace + your free will choice. So which one of us is believing that our salvation is dependent upon ourselves and something we do?


OK I wanted to string all those together so to preserve context (as much is possible, your post is still there for others to check) but I wanted to respond to these points only at this time. There's something about Eph 2:8-9 that needs to be talked about but it's not vital for this discussion right now. *note* I corrected the spelling of dependent - I spell it the same way you do all the time!! lol that makes me giggle.

I dealt with the confidence thing above and so I'll skip making you read that again. We can talk more about that later.

As for this decision and getting credit for faith.

Acts 16:30-31 Paul when asked what must I do to be saved Paul tells the man to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul tells him to believe. In verse 34 we read that he rejoiced because he did believe.

This goes a bit beyond our discussion but Josh 24:15 shows men "choosing" or "deciding"

Again from the article above Paul wrote that the Corinthians "received" or "παρελαβετε" the Gospel and were saved. It's in the "Active Voice", they did it.

1 Cor 15:11 "..so we preached, and so you believed." They believed.

Do a search on "your faith" you'll see that the Bible clearly says it is "our" faith that saves. Not "the faith you have" and not "the faith you were given" but "your faith" that saves.

In John 6:28-29 we read

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

It's like if I asked God, What must I do to do the works of God? And He answered "this is the work of God that you swing a hammer" and I swung the hammer, it would not be God swinging the hammer. It would be me, obeying God, and swinging the hammer.

My point is the Bible requires that one believes, and then states that we are saved because we believed. The Bible does not seem to care "who gets the credit" for belief. It's something required of the sinner, and then ascribed to the sinner countless times in Scripture.

Check out the order of events given in Eph 1:13-14 (the word "trusted" comes from the context of verses 11 & 12)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We trusted, after having heard the Gospel, and having believed we were sealed by the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

Notice it doesn't say that we received the Holy Spirit, and then heard(or received) the Gospel, and then were saved.

It says, we heard, we believed and then we were saved and sealed with the Spirit. No regeneration first, no enabling by the Spirit first, no what we did was heard and believed and were saved.

K this is starting to get long again. :)

Bless you!
Kev

Kevl said...

I want to assure the readers of this blog that my Sister in the Lord Bridget is "of the faith." Her heart and testimony has born witness of this of the period of years.

We have disagreement on a fundamental thing, but as you can see we can strive for truth without hating each other.

This is a process that can be exhausting and emotionally straining.

Be sure that the times when she shows grace towards me it is not to "win me over." In all regards I consider Bridget to be sincere and loving.

Kev

bp said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bp said...

Hi brother,
I tried to edit something, but it wouldn't let me, so I deleted it and posted it again. :)Thanks for your response. You said:

my Salvation is not dependent on His continued work in my life, my Salvation is dependent on His "finished work on the Cross" to make use of a common phrase.

Do you believe that your faith unites you to Christ and that being united to Christ in faith brings salvation Kev? Then your salvation is dependent on your faith, brother. And your faith is dependent on either a choice you made/make or a choice God made/makes. This is not rocket science.

“For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”—1 John 5:4-5)

As I said, not only is our salvation dependent on our faith at conversion, but also on our on-going, continuing faith. And just as our initial faith is God-given, so is our on-going faith:

“I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”—Phil 1:6

“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord…”—Jude 24


Maybe it's hard to see this Kev and I'm sure it's hard to acknowledge it, because if you do, then you’ll also have to acknowledge that either, 1-your salvation is dependent on something that you chose to do and choose to continue to do (works righteousness), or 2.(the truth), that faith is God-given and God-sustained. And either one will break down a lot of your belief system. But please consider these things further.

And please try to understand this, because it is KEY: When I say that my salvation is dependent on my faith, it does not mean that I am trusting that my faith somehow saves me from my sins or cleanses me from sin (Only Christ’s substitutionary life, death and resurrection on my behalf can do that). When it says in Gen 15:6 that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, does that mean that his faith made him righteous?... That his faith somehow took away his sins? Of course not. And in the same way, I do not have faith that my faith saves me or has the power to save me, but that by this faith (which is given by God), I am united with Christ and receive all that He purchased for me on the cross.

Again, please spend some time thinking about this Kev. It was a fearful thing to read what you said above (“my Salvation is not dependent on His continued work in my life”). Not only are you denying that your faith is fully God-given, but you are denying that it is fully God-sustained. 1 Peter 5:9 would not say, “Resist him (satan), firm in the faith…” if our on-going faith were not required. Paul wouldn’t have told Timothy (2 Tim 4:7), “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”, if continuing faith were not required. He would not have said in 1 Tim 4:1, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..”, if our salvation were not dependent on our on-going faith. He would not have said in Col 1:21-23, “And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard…”, if our continued faith were not required for salvation. Yes, I agree that we are the ones who have faith. It is we who believe, and not God believing on our behalf. But it is God-given and God-sustained.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”—1 Peter 1:3-5.

If “winning you over” means that you come to understand the truth of Scripture and ascribe glory to God for your initial and on on-going faith in Christ (for the forgiveness of your sins), then I am trying to win you over, brother. You and everyone else who is reading this.

In Christ,
Bridget

Kevl said...

Bridget, I need spend no time "thinking this over" Do I need to "consider" what is True when the Bible tells me plainly what is True?

Paul wrote that the Gospel saves, and that that Salvation is perfect.

The problem with the theology that you're espousing is that it's all "reasoning" If/Then statements based on what make sense but the "If" is never about Scripture compared with Scripture and the "Then" is never in agreement with Scripture it's in agreement with Theology.

You said Maybe it's hard to see this Kev and I'm sure it's hard to acknowledge it, because if you do, then you’ll also have to acknowledge that either, 1-your salvation is dependent on something that you chose to do and choose to continue to do (works righteousness), or 2.(the truth), that faith is God-given and God-sustained. And either one will break down a lot of your belief system. But please consider these things further.

Sister I can say no more or no less than Scripture does. I am not "proud" of my theology and therefore do not "protect" it. There is nothing hard to acknowledge. Scripture either says something or it does not. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

It was a fearful thing to read what you said above (“my Salvation is not dependent on His continued work in my life”). Not only are you denying that your faith is fully God-given, but you are denying that it is fully God-sustained.

I do mean what I wrote in my short post to the readers. However I'm going to be very short with you on this point.

The Salvation I have is given, perfectly. It does not need to be "sustained." It does not need to be "protected" or "perfected" or "added to." I am saved because Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose again. Because I have faith in this I've been baptized into His death and His death has become mine. Because I have been baptized into His Death I have also been baptized into His resurrection. I can not be "unbaptized" I can not loose my Salvation. It does not need to be "sustained" it is a perfect thing.

All these things that God promises to do.. .are they needed in order that a person will be saved Bridget? Does Scripture tell you this or your reasoning? Or someone else's reasoning?

Answer this question from a Jailer who has just witnessed the power of God. What must I do to be saved?

Kev

bp said...

Your own words betray you Kev:

“Because I have faith in this, I've been baptized into His death and His death has become mine.”

Though you don’t want to come right out and voice it, you admit here clearly that your salvation is dependent on your faith. Why can’t you just say it Kev—your union with Christ (which leads to salvation) is dependent upon your faith. I’m not saying that your faith saves you. Saying that my salvation is dependent on my faith is very different than saying my faith saves me, or that I’m trusting in my faith to cleanse me of my sins. You say that it’s not in the Bible?

“By grace you have been saved through faith..”-Eph 2:8

“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.”-2 Tim 3:15

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.”-Rom 1:16

Here's one that even says it outright:

“…in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness of God that depends on faith.”-Phil 3:8-9 ESV

"..the righteousness which is of God by faith. KJV

"..the righteousness of God that depends on faith. RSV

"...the righteousness which is from God by faith NKJV

I've shown enough Scripture to prove that our salvation is clearly dependent on our faith.

You also said:

The Salvation I have is given, perfectly. It does not need to be "sustained."
“It does not need to be "protected"


It doesn’t?

Col 1:21-23, “And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard…

1 Tim 4:1, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons..”,

1 Peter 1:3-5, “he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

1 Tim 1:19, “holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith.

I think Scripture is clear on this too, brother. Saying that my faith needs to be sustained is very different than saying that Christ’s work on the cross needs to be improved upon. His life, death and resurrection was perfectly sufficient. But Scripture is clear that our union with Him is dependent on our faith in this gospel, and pretending it doesn’t exist will not change that. I hope and pray that you will come to see and admit this, and that you will also see that our faith is God-given and God-sustained. Or else it leads to works-(self) righteousness and is cause for boasting.

“And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”-Phil 1:6

Thanks again for reading Kev.

bp said...

Answer this question from a Jailer who has just witnessed the power of God. What must I do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. (see it? Our salvation is dependent on our believing (our faith). And our faith is dependent on God’s grace.

“It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not of works, so no man can boast.”-Eph 2:8-9.

Kevl said...

Bridget,

You said I've shown enough Scripture to prove that our salvation is clearly dependent on our faith.

Did I say anything different? What must I do to be saved - believe.

My salvation is dependent on the Gospel, God saving me based on Christ's finished work on the Cross is "conditional" based on if I place my faith in Him or not.

I am saved BY Grace, "through" faith. And that salvation is the gift of God.

Eph 2:8-9 can be perverted in the English to make it seem like it is "faith" that is the Gift of God however the genders and numbers do not match in the Greek so it can not be so.

If one is to be saved they must believe. But our salvation is not "dependent" on our faith. It is conditional. The foundation, that which our Salvation is dependent on is that Christ was qualified to, and actually did do the things the Gospel says He did.

This is why Paul says that our believe could only be in vain if Christ is not risen. Our Salvation is dependent on the Gospel, but conditional on reception by Faith.

My faith needs to be sustained yes. But my salvation does not. My salvation is not "dependent" on my faith. Paul had no issue at all proclaiming (declaring) that the Corinthians were IN FACT saved perfectly and eternally - even though at that very moment they were DENYING the Resurrection.

They had departed from the faith, but they were saved.

God will work those who have been saved. He will prune them. He will allow great testing in their lives. And He will provide grace for them.

But the Scriptures are clear that SAVED people will "depart" and stop "abiding" in Christ and stop being "fruitful." The parable of the Sower - those seeds grew - there was new life. Yet almost all of them departed in the testing. This doesn't mean they were not saved. It means they departed fellowship and could no longer be fruitful.

God will finish the work, even in those. For they too will be resurrected to perfection in the very image of Christ. Which is what that verse you keep quoting means.

This idea of "God given faith" and "regeneration prior to Salvation" are all just excuses to insert Works into Salvation by the back door. "It's not really works if God does it through me."

This idea that people can somehow take credit for their faith is a smoke screen. It is. Paul NEVER minded telling people that THEY had faith. Paul thanked God for the fame of the faith of assemblies. Paul never cautioned the Church "not to take credit for their faith." This is some made up idea used to force other extra-biblical ideas into the conversation.

We are not reborn based on US, or even on what God can do through us. Read this closely.

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Peter is a piece of rock. Jesus is "The Rock" or "This Rock" The Church is built on Christ, not on what Christ does through men. That is our salvation, based on, dependent on, Christ and Christ alone. Not one any further performance.

That God has promised to do more is true, but that does not relate to any insecurity in our Salvation. Paul had no pause in declaring even disobedient rebellious Christians as perfectly saved. So it is clear that Salvation is not dependent on performance.

In fact just as Scripture says, Salvation is "apart" from Works. Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

The word translated "apart" there is χωρις or "choris" and it means "separate from."

God doesn't just save not based on Works, but God saves "separate from" Works. Works have NOTHING to do with Salvation. It doesn't matter if you want to ascribe them to God or yourself. God does not save with Works. He saves "separate from" them.

There are no works involved in Salvation. If there are then Scripture lies.

Therefore... there can be no "hard demands" for Salvation. There can be no "improvement" there can be no becoming "more Christ-like"

There can only be Salvation by Grace through Faith - the Gift of God.

Kev


Kev

bp said...

Are you sure you’re not confused?
I said:

I've shown enough Scripture to prove that our salvation is clearly dependent on our faith.

And you said:

Did I say anything different? What must I do to be saved - believe

And then you said:

But our salvation is not "dependent" on our faith

Your whole post seems schizophrenic to me. I’m not saying this to be mean at all, it just does. And notice that you said, “Did I say anything different? What must I do to be saved-believe.” And yet, your salvation isn’t dependent on anything you do? Hmm. I really am trying to wrap my brain around this kev, but it’s hard.

Here’s another couple of quotes (from the same sentence) that seems schizophrenic:

“This idea that people can somehow take credit for their faith is a smoke screen.”

And:

“Paul never cautioned the Church "not to take credit for their faith.”

Huh? Can you or can’t you? In one you imply that we can't take credit and in the other that there's no reason we can't.

Kev, you’ve admitted that our salvation is dependent on our faith (even if you did retract it a couple paragraphs later and say it is “conditional upon our faith”--same thing: no faith, no salvation), but I can’t figure out which of the following two things you are accusing me of. Are you saying:

1. That if I believe that my salvation is dependent upon my faith, that this means that I am somehow trusting in something that I “DO” to save me? (in the sense that I’m trusting or believing that my act of faith somehow actually removes my sin, or perhaps that my faith + Christ’s sacrifice removes my sin, and therefore it is works-righteousness). Cuz if this is the case, I’m not. The only thing that my faith does is unite me to Christ—it’s His life, death and resurrection—His sacrifice on my behalf--- that takes away my sin and He did that perfectly. I can’t add anything to that.

Or are you trying to say:

2. That if I believe that my salvation is dependent upon my faith, that would mean that I’m believing that my salvation is dependent upon something I do (believe), and therefore I’m believing that something I do causes my salvation?

If it’s #2, I can see why you’d feel this way. I do believe that my salvation is dependent upon my faith (which I’ve proven clearly from Scripture), and that having faith really IS a work that I do:

What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’”—John 6:28-29

But it is God who produces this faith in me. The fact that I believe my faith is God-given is not “an excuse to bring works salvation through the back door" because God-given faith is nothing I can take credit for. Only if I believed my faith was of my own doing or even God and me doing it together would I be able to take all or some of the credit.

It would be more truthful for me to say this to you: Saying that salvation isn’t dependent upon faith and therefore it doesn't matter if faith is a work you do or not is just an excuse you use to avoid facing the reality that your theology really does bring works salvation through the back door.

When Romans 4:6 says, “Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one whom God counts righteousness apart from works”, it is showing that we cannot become righteous by keeping the law, or by the works of the law. Romans 3:20 and 3:28 mention the same thing:

“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law.”


I don’t think it could be any clearer than this Kev. Again, my prayer is just that you’d atleast prayerfully consider these things more deeply, comparing it all to Scripture and that you wouldn’t harden yourself to the truth simply because you have a lot of theology at stake. I got to know you fairly well on the SoBE forum and I don’t take you for the kind of guy that would put a system of theology above the Truth.

Bridget

bp said...

I was reading back through some of the things you said Kev, and want to point out something else that is contradictory. You said the following three things:

But my Salvation is not dependent on His continued work in my life

The Salvation I have is given, perfectly. It does not need to be "sustained." It does not need to be "protected"

My faith needs to be sustained yes. But my salvation does not.


--You say that your faith needs to be sustained.
--You deny that your salvation needs to be sustained.
--Yet you said that your salvation is dependent on (conditional upon) your faith.

Do you see anything wrong with this Kev? If your salvation is dependent on your faith, and your faith needs to be sustained, then how can your salvation not need to be sustained?

"..(God)who saved us and called us to a holy calling.."2 Tim 1:9

"But the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."-1 Cor 1:18

“But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”—Matt 24:13

What does this verse mean when it says “endures”? It means “keep the faith”, just as Paul said to Timothy in 2 Tim, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.” Only those who keep the faith will be saved.

Again, this is not works-righteousness if you believe that your faith is dependent on God’s continued work in your life Kev. This is why I say it is such a fearful thing to say that your salvation isn’t dependent upon God’s continued work in your life. Cuz that means it’s dependent upon your work in your life.

Kevl said...

Bridget,this post of yours makes me wonder if you are not much more interested in winning arguments than you are in finding the Truth. You stated and quoted these:

Are you sure you’re not confused?
I said:

I've shown enough Scripture to prove that our salvation is clearly dependent on our faith.

And you said:

Did I say anything different? What must I do to be saved – believe

And then you said:

But our salvation is not "dependent" on our faith

Your whole post seems schizophrenic to me. I’m not saying this to be mean at all, it just does. And notice that you said, “Did I say anything different? What must I do to be saved-believe.” And yet, your salvation isn’t dependent on anything you do? Hmm. I really am trying to wrap my brain around this kev, but it’s hard.


I’m sorry you couldn’t follow my post. I could have been more consistent in my language. I thought the word “but” and the quotations around the word “dependent” would give you a sense of what I was saying. I was wrong and I am sorry.

That my strength in communication is limited does not change the clear teaching of Scripture. You “win points” with those reading this who are looking for “something to believe” instead of “the Truth” but those who are searching the Scriptures couldn’t care less if I mess up how I write a blog post reply. Should I point out the problems with your posts?

You went on:

Here’s another couple of quotes (from the same sentence) that seems schizophrenic:

“This idea that people can somehow take credit for their faith is a smoke screen.”

And:

“Paul never cautioned the Church "not to take credit for their faith.”

Huh? Can you or can’t you? In one you imply that we can't take credit and in the other that there's no reason we can't.


Bridget that is a deliberate addition to what I wrote. I didn’t say there is “no reason why you can’t.” What I said is that Paul was not concerned with this. I didn’t say that you CAN take “credit” I said that Paul wasn’t concerned with it…. Is that so hard to understand? What is your purpose in this? Because no matter how important you continue to claim it is it comes off as a smoke screen to keep the conversation from being about what the Scriptures say a person must do to be saved.

Kev, you’ve admitted that our salvation is dependent on our faith (even if you did retract it a couple paragraphs later and say it is “conditional upon our faith”--same thing: no faith, no salvation)

Actually I was pretty clear how those are not the same thing. Must I repeat?

, but I can’t figure out which of the following two things you are accusing me of. Are you saying:

Bridget I’m not accusing you of anything other than espousing error. Frankly with your games in the first of your post I’m too frustrated to read these to give you the benefit of the doubt on these next two points. So I’m not going to respond to them.

If it’s #2, I can see why you’d feel this way. I do believe that my salvation is dependent upon my faith (which I’ve proven clearly from Scripture), and that having faith really IS a work that I do:

What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’”—John 6:28-29


That’s an argument I would have used at the mid point of last year. However, now I would argue that the Lord was showing that we need not work.

If you believe that your faith is a “work” and you believe that your Salvation is dependent on your faith then you are in clear disharmony with the Word of God which says quite plainly that Salvation is “apart” from works. There are no “works” in Salvation period. See my last post for a detailed presentation of this. Your theology does not follow Scripture.

But it is God who produces this faith in me. The fact that I believe my faith is God-given is not “an excuse to bring works salvation through the back door" because God-given faith is nothing I can take credit for. Only if I believed my faith was of my own doing or even God and me doing it together would I be able to take all or some of the credit.

As I stated in the last post (the one you are replying to) Salvation is accomplished “apart from” works. No matter who you THINK actually did the “works” doesn’t matter. God saves people apart from works. They are not involved.

It would be more truthful for me to say this to you: Saying that salvation isn’t dependent upon faith and therefore it doesn't matter if faith is a work you do or not is just an excuse you use to avoid facing the reality that your theology really does bring works salvation through the back door.

Are you just making up stuff to argue against? I really can’t follow you here.

When Romans 4:6 says, “Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one whom God counts righteousness apart from works”, it is showing that we cannot become righteous by keeping the law, or by the works of the law. Romans 3:20 and 3:28 mention the same thing:

Bridget, that is an “interpretation” of what that verse is saying. The Greek is plain and clear, and so is the English really. You can add to it all you like. You can decide for yourself that it is just repeating what some other verses say but God breathed Scripture says that God saves people separate from Works.

I don’t think it could be any clearer than this Kev.

Things always seem perfectly clear when they seem to agree with our presuppositions. Scripture is supposed to “transform our mind” not the other way around.

Again, my prayer is just that you’d atleast prayerfully consider these things more deeply, comparing it all to Scripture and that you wouldn’t harden yourself to the truth simply because you have a lot of theology at stake.

Sister there is no theology at stake for me. I toss out thoughts that are not in step with the Word of God like yesterday’s news. Do you?

I got to know you fairly well on the SoBE forum and I don’t take you for the kind of guy that would put a system of theology above the Truth.

Have you seen me reference a “system of theology” in defense of my thoughts even once? Have you referenced any?

These last couple of posts are tough and pointed. I’m sorry that it must be that way. We are discussing at a distance.

Kev

Kevl said...

To All Reading,

What you are witnessing here is the common tactics of those who espouse Lordship Salvation Theology. Bridget who is a long time friend gets treated with higher regard than any other person like her. I should not favor people but she and I have been friends for a while now.

When the presuppositions are negated, the reasoning starts, and with the reasoning comes topics that are not associated with the subject. ANYTHING except proving what a sinner must do in order to be saved.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget, your posts are getting more hostile.

You said I was reading back through some of the things you said Kev, and want to point out something else that is contradictory. You said the following three things:

But my Salvation is not dependent on His continued work in my life

The Salvation I have is given, perfectly. It does not need to be "sustained." It does not need to be "protected"

My faith needs to be sustained yes. But my salvation does not.

--You say that your faith needs to be sustained.
--You deny that your salvation needs to be sustained.
--Yet you said that your salvation is dependent on (conditional upon) your faith.

Do you see anything wrong with this Kev? If your salvation is dependent on your faith, and your faith needs to be sustained, then how can your salvation not need to be sustained?


No I don't see anything wrong with this. I put my faith in Christ and He saves me. That Salvation is perfect. He must sustain my faith but my salvation is decided. It is not "dependent" on my Faith. It was conditional on my believing. Conditional and dependent are two different things.

Maybe you are equating the two, but I believe based on the character of your last several posts that this is a deliberate act.

Paul says that the salvation one receives when they receive the Gospel is perfect, an absolute truth that is finished. Once the condition of belief has been met a person is saved and that salvation is eternally secure.

You said Only those who keep the faith will be saved.

So Moses isn't saved?
So Solomon isn't saved?
So the prophets who ran and hid and cried and whined are not saved?

Need I go on?

Remember, Moses was ordered to die because he did not "keep the faith" yet Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with the Lord.

Me thinks you read too much into verses when you do read them from a "theological point of view."

This is why I say it is such a fearful thing to say that your salvation isn’t dependent upon God’s continued work in your life. Cuz that means it’s dependent upon your work in your life.

Actually no... and THIS time I'm going to call you on your continued act of a "False Dilemma" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

My Salvation is only dependent on the fact that Christ died for my sins, was buried and rose again. If those facts should happen to change at some point then my Salvation would be void and my faith would be in vain. Do you expect this to happen?

Once a person is saved it is no longer conditional. It is finished.

Kev

bp said...

Kev, why do you feel the need to write a post “To all reading” and go on to say that what I’m doing is a “common tactic”. It feels as though you’re trying to portray me as someone who’s coming into this discussion on some sort of shady, underhanded tactical mission or something (the Lordship Salvation under-cover spy mission hehe). Don’t you think the readers of your blog can read these things and discern for themselves unless you create a prejudice against me first? You said that I’m becoming hostile, but isn’t this hostile, brother?

Here is my motive for posting Kev: It is in the hopes that your lips will proclaim rightful glory and honor to God and not to yourself for what He has done for you through Christ (whether you take credit for it or not doesn't matter because your theology shows this is so), and that you will come to know Him and His grace in greater depth. I won’t deny that the flesh sometimes wants to take over when things get heated, but I seek the Lord’s forgiveness when that happens. And if there is any other hidden motive, may God reveal it to me and forgive me.

Moving on, I have to point out that being contradictory in your posts is not the same as “having your “strength in communication limited” Kev. You made a totally contradictory statement. When I said:

I've shown enough Scripture to prove that our salvation is clearly dependent on our faith.

you said:

Did I say anything different? What must I do to be saved - believe.

And then:

But our salvation is not "dependent" on our faith

Quotation marks or no quotation marks, this is totally contradictory, not simply a lack of good communication skills. If you didn’t agree with my statement and you thought that your salvation was “conditional" upon your faith and that this was something different all together, then why would you have agreed so whole-heartedly in the very same post? I can’t help but think it’s because you know that it’s true. And anyway, saying our salvation is “conditional” upon our faith still means that if we don’t have faith we won’t be saved.

I think you’re either mixed up by thinking that I’m saying my faith helps take away my sins or adds in some way to Christ’s sacrifice, or else you just cannot bring yourself to admit (as a result of your theology) that you are believing that something “you” do helps get you saved. But if you can really show me how “dependent” upon and “conditional” upon are different in this situation, please explain it carefully (conditional vs. dependent for dummies or something :)

But If truth be told Kev, you said something contradictory again in this post. In one of your other posts you said:

My faith needs to be sustained yes. But my salvation does not.

And then, speaking of the Corinthian believers in this post you said:

They had departed from the faith, but they were saved

Well then, why do you say that your faith needs to be sustained? And was Paul lying when he told Timothy, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”? or was he some sort of super saint?

It’s not being hostile to point these inconsistencies out Kev. And I don’t understand how you could possibly say that I am “reasoning and coming up with topics that are not associated with the subject. ANYTHING except proving what a sinner must do in order to be saved.” This is another totally unfair accusation. Did I not answer the question point-blank when you said to me:

Answer this question from a Jailer who has just witnessed the power of God. What must I do to be saved?

And I said:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. (see it? Our salvation is dependent on our believing (our faith). And our faith is dependent on God’s grace.

What must I “do”? Believe!
And since Scripture clearly teaches that our salvation is dependent (conditional) upon our faith, and our faith (our believing) is dependent (conditional) upon our "decision" to believe, it naturally follows that our salvation is dependent (conditional) upon our "decision", so the million dollar question is: What was the "causation" behind my decision? And whatever that answer is (God, Me or God and Me), will also be what our salvation is dependent (conditional) upon.

Kevl said...

Hello Bridget,

You asked
Kev, why do you feel the need to write a post “To all reading” and go on to say that what I’m doing is a “common tactic”.


Because it is a common tactic. It's not my intention to offend you. But my intention for this article, The Power Of God To Salvation is to educate the Brethren about the false doctrine that is Lordship Salvation. It's just one article among many and is largely insufficient. But it has started conversation.

You pointed out; Moving on, I have to point out that being contradictory in your posts is not the same as “having your “strength in communication limited” Kev. You made a totally contradictory statement.

If I did make a completely contradictory statment.. Let's say I was so confused that I said one thing and then immediately said the exact opposite. For the purposes of this discussion let's say I did do exactly that.

What has your argument gained? Nothing. My poor communication does not validate the false theology you are promoting.

You went on.... I think you’re either mixed up by thinking that I’m saying my faith helps take away my sins or adds in some way to Christ’s sacrifice, or else you just cannot bring yourself to admit (as a result of your theology) that you are believing that something “you” do helps get you saved. But if you can really show me how “dependent” upon and “conditional” upon are different in this situation, please explain it carefully (conditional vs. dependent for dummies or something :)

I believe I was clear in the post that you are so upset about. I guess I was not....

My Salvation DEPENDS on, could not be possible without, the Gospel.

My Salvation WAS conditional on, the condition had to be met for Salvation to happen but remained "possible" even without the condition being met, my faith.

See?

Depends - must happen for the possibility to exist.

Conditional - must happen to be applied. Even before the condition is met the possibility of Salvation always exists, always waiting on the condition being met.

The opposite can not be said. If the Gospel were not true it would not matter if I met the condition. Likewise, my salvation is perfect and no longer "conditional" once it has happened. Therefore my salvation is not "dependent" on my Faith it is ONLY conditional upon it.

So Sister, if a sinner - a UNREGENERATED sinner receives the Gospel will they in fact be saved?

Kev

bp said...

Hi Kev. You said:

If I did make a completely contradictory statment.. Let's say I was so confused that I said one thing and then immediately said the exact opposite. For the purposes of this discussion let's say I did do exactly that.

I have to ask this: Why do you say “If I did” and “for the purposes of this discussion let’s say I did" make a completely contradictory statement, Kev? Don’t you still know if you did? Can’t you see the proof right there or are you still confused about what you're saying or what you mean. Really, I want to know because I thought that was just odd.

But on to more important things. You said:

"My Salvation DEPENDS on, could not be possible without, the Gospel.

My Salvation WAS conditional on, the condition had to be met for Salvation to happen but remained "possible" even without the condition being met, my faith.

See?

Depends - must happen for the possibility to exist.

Conditional - must happen to be applied. Even before the condition is met the possibility of Salvation always exists, always waiting on the condition being met.


Smoke and mirrors is all this is Kev. But lets walk through this together. So this is what you're saying. You’re saying that your salvation is dependent upon the gospel because without the gospel it wouldn’t be possible to be saved, but your salvation is not dependent upon your faith because without faith it would still be possible for you to be saved, Right?

Or to put it another way, you’re saying that in order for salvation to be “dependent” upon our faith, it would mean that our faith MUST HAPPEN in order for the possibility of salvation to even exist, and since the possibility of salvation DOES exist without our faith, it’s not dependent upon our faith, right?

Ok, let’s examine that closer. You say that the “possibility” of salvation exists without faith. Does it? No it doesn’t. And I'll tell you the reason why: Because even though it is possible to be saved if I don’t have faith right now, this possibility to be saved without faith that you’re talking about, this possibility, is based completely and totally on the person having future FAITH! So the possibility for salvation does NOT exist apart from or without faith at all! Faith MUST HAPPEN (sooner or later) in order for even the possibility of salvation to exist.

This is all smoke and mirrors here kev. Really. I’m not saying you don’t genuinely believe what you’re saying, I’m sure you do. But it boils down to 2 questions that aren’t complicated at all:

1-Does the gospel have to exist in order for a person to be saved? Yes!

2-Does faith in the gospel have to exist in order for a person to be saved? Yes!

So our salvation is dependent on the gospel, because it is Christ alone who became a perfect sacrifice on our behalf. And our salvation is dependent upon our faith because it is through faith alone that we are united with Christ.

No gospel, No salvation.

No faith, No salvation (or even a possibility of salvation).

I wish you wouldn’t complicate things so.

And so once again it boils down to this, and I'll ask you the question Kev: where does your faith comes from. Does it come from you, from God, or from you and God?

bp said...

BTW: I was hoping you'd respond to what I said in my previous post:

You said:

My faith needs to be sustained yes. But my salvation does not.

And then, speaking of the Corinthian believers in this post you said:

They had departed from the faith, but they were saved

Well then, why do you say that your faith needs to be sustained? And was Paul lying when he told Timothy, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”? or was he some sort of super saint?

Thanks.

Kevl said...

Bridget,

You said I have to ask this: Why do you say “If I did” and “for the purposes of this discussion let’s say I did" make a completely contradictory statement, Kev? Don’t you still know if you did? Can’t you see the proof right there or are you still confused about what you're saying or what you mean. Really, I want to know because I thought that was just odd.

Get a hold of yourself.

Has such junk helped your position? Has your argument been served by this?

I have let this conversation go away from the subject because I wanted to satisfy your needs. But you are just wanting to be nasty and "win" and seem to have no concern for what is True.

Does it matter what or how I said something? Does that make Lordship Salvation correct? I think not.

If you still hold to these views then support them or not;

That IN ORDER TO BE SAVED (not what should be the case after salvation) a lost sinner must -

1) Submission to the lordship of Christ over all areas of one’s life,
2) A willingness to meet the demands of discipleship (although these proponents sometimes indicate that actually meeting the demands is not the requirement, just the willingness to do so),
3) Loving the Lord Jesus above all things,
4) Forsaking sin,
5) Seeking to live a righteous life.

and if they do not do even one of these they will not be saved.

I will be shutting down the comment portion of my blog tonight, for about a week. I am going to be unavailable to moderate and respond so it will have to be turned off. I'm telling you this ahead of time so you can collect your thoughts and respond to the topic at hand if you choose.

Kev

Kevl said...

BTW Bridget, you need not ask questions and expect answers when you don't answer my questions and when you lecture me about things you know are the result of miscommunication. If you want perfect posts that are developed and checked to ensure there are no errors in them you'll have to find a different Internet.

It comes down to this, don't think that nastiness will paint me into a corner so you can manipulate the conversation. I really don't care if I made a mistake in my post or not... even if I did it would not help your position. It is as much of a smoke screen rabbit trail as your discussion about who gets to "take credit" for a persons faith.

Kev

Lou Martuneac said...

Kevl:

You have identified a common practice among Calvinists. That is why I rarely engage the hardended Calvinist.

They are fixatated on the circle logic of five point Calvinism and they will force into or extract from the Bible whatever they must to keep the chain unbroken.


LM

Kevl said...

Hey Lou,

We should actually chat about this sometime. It's easy to avoid such conversations online - if one wishes to - but it can be challenging in person. Especially with what I term the "aggressive expansionist Calvinist" who wants to know where everyone in the room stands so he can convert them to Calvinism.

Thanks for the comment, I'm going to be AFK for about a week starting tomorrow but we should chat soon.

Kev

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

When I do engage this subject it is for the benefit of readers to help them avoid falling into the trap of Calvinism and the extra-biblical presuppositions that flow from it.


LOu

bp said...

I asked you that first question in my last post because it looked like you weren’t sure if you made a contradictory statement or not, and it would have been hard to go on with the discussion if you didn’t even see it as contradictory, kev. That's all. But I guess I can't do much about it if you want to continue to paint me as someone who’s just being mean or trying to win an argument.

I do want to point out again that although this discussion is under your Lordship post,my original comment was simply about something you said in the comments above about whether believing is “making oneself well” or not. That’s what this has been about. I’ve not gone “off” topic. I’ve been trying to show this whole time that believing the gospel actually “is” about making oneself well if the person believes it is they who accomplished this faith. And I did this by trying to show you that salvation is dependent on this faith. That’s all. I haven’t deviated. I’ve answered your questions about what a person must do to be saved.

Cuz you see, it doesn’t even pay to take part in the Lordship discussion if you cannot see that your salvation is dependent on your faith kev, because non-Lordship is based totally on your mistaken belief that your salvation isn't dependent on anything you “do”. And so not until you see the truth on this point will you ever see the truth of Lordship, brother. I’m no Calvinist bent on converting you. I’m a sister in Christ who cares enough to want you to know the truth about this.

I wish you the best!
God's grace to you, in Christ.

Bridget

bp said...

Kev, before you shut the comments down here, I want to tell you that I was praying about this and reading my bible awhile ago, and it “just so happened” (yeah right :) I was reading in Titus, where Paul tells Titus to be “gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.” And this convicted me, so I prayed and went on to your blog and read some of my posts, and saw that there was some truth to your charge that some of my posts came across nasty. Some of my more recent posts definitely could have been more gentle and courteous and I apologize for that. It just shows how persistent my flesh really is. I still think that all of our discussion was important and pertinent to the Lordship discussion and I stand by everything that I said about salvation being dependent on our faith, and the conclusions this leads to regarding Lordship, but I’m sorry for not being more gentle in my responses.

Love you brother.
Bridget

Kevl said...

Bridget, I appreciate your comments in this post.

As everyone is aware it is a big challenge to discuss such things at a distance and it almost always leads to "heat."

Bless You!

Kev

Kevl said...

One says that Faith is something to brag about if it comes from one's self. That it is a "good work" that God does through you and therefor He gets the "credit" for it. And so one ought to thank God for the faith He has given him so they can be saved. One says that our Salvation is "dependent" on our Faith, and indicating that our faithfulness is then a measure of our Salvation and so our faithfulness must be maintained to the end in oder that we be saved. So, it is reasoned, if our faithfulness is the measure of our Salvation then Salvation must come through faithfulness, obedience, loyalty.... and since no one can obey they must first be regenerated in order to make this possible.

Here are some Scriptures to consider.

Thanking God for the "good" He does through you -

Luke 18:9-14 9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This man was thanking God for the change God had made in him.. or at least that he thought God had made in him. And God used him as an example not to follow.

Our Salvation is measured by our faithfulness. 1 Cor 15:1-2 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Paul had no issue declaring that the Gospel had saved these Corinthians eternally and perfectly even though they were now denying the Resurrection. They had "departed the faith" Paul measured their Salvation by the Truth of the Gospel. His "unless you believed in vain" meaning that unless the Gospel is not true. Ref 1 Cor 15:12-19

Of if our faithfulness must endure to the end - Deut 32:48-52 and Mat 17:1-3 48The LORD spoke to Moses that very same day, saying,
49"Go up to this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab opposite Jericho, and look at the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the sons of Israel for a possession.
50"Then die on the mountain where you ascend, and be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people,
51because you broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel.
52"For you shall see the land at a distance, but you shall not go there, into the land which I am giving the sons of Israel."


AND

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Clearly Moses was Saved even though he did not "finish well" or nor did he "keep the faith" as the Apostle Paul did.

Is Faith a "work" that God uses to save us? Eph 2:8-9 Titus 3:3-7 Rom 4:2-6

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


Does regeneration precede Faith and Salvation? Eph 1:13-14 Titus 3:7

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit after we believe, not before. And we are "born again into God's family" - regenerated - after having been justified by Grace.

More nails in the coffin of Regeneration prior to Salvation, and the idea the idea that flows from it that only the Elect can be saved, because only the Elect will be regenerated so they can put faith in God and then be saved.Rom 4:5-8 Rom 5:6 1 John 2:2 1 John 3:9

5 But to him who does not work but believes< on Him who justifies the ungodly


6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

God died for the "ungodly" not only those who would be regenerated into God's family so they could believe. He also "justifies the ungodly." If regeneration prior to Salvation were to be true then God would never ever have, nor ever ever would justify an ungodly person. Because of the regenerated man Scripture says "he can not sin"

Is there someway that a man can "take credit" for his faith? Men can brag about all sorts of things. Does the Bible EVER warn about man "taking credit" for their own faith? Does the Bible ever show an example of men given ownership or praise for their faith?

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=your+faith&searchtype=phrase&version1=50&bookset=2

I can not find a single instance where the Bible warns a person not to "take credit" for their faith. I can find many instances where a person is told THEY must believe or have faith in order to be saved. It is something we must do.

I can also find instances of Paul giving thanks for people's faith, talking of the "good news of your faith" and so on...

Lordship Salvation is not demanded by the Gospel that saves. 1 Cor 15:1-11 The Lord refutes such behavior Himself. The Apostle Paul teaches that Salvation is "apart" from works. He clearly shows that God justifies the ungodly, not those He has regenerated.

When Scripture is compared with Scripture there is never found logical need for Lordship Salvation, nor an example of a Lordship Salvation ever being preached, nor an example of anyone holding the "hard demands" of Lordship Salvation up for a sinner to met.

Lordship Salvation tugs at our hearts because it is perfectly reasonable that the World should bow down and serve fully our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Creator God of the Universe. It is perfectly reasonable but this is not what God has required of men to be saved. He has required that men repent to believe that God died on their behalf because of our sins, that He was buried for three days, and rose again to life and was seen in the flesh by more than 500 people. All of this in accordance with the Scriptures.

Repentance is the change of mind about all of this. It is the conviction and convincing by the Holy Spirit and our response of a changed mind about Sin, Righteousness and Judgment. Repentance is not a "changed life" or even "submission." it is a realization that causes faith. That Christ was qualified and did do all of this on my behalf.

This was long, but it is my summary and closing statement in this thread.

God Bless,
Kev

Kevl said...

That was my closing for this thread, I'm going to leave comments working for a few more hours and then I'm going to turn them off as I will be AFK for a week.

I'm leaving things open right now in case Bridget, Mark or Jazzy would like to have some closing thoughts, or if anyone else wants to add something for that matter.

Kev

bp said...

Thanks kev. My final comment would be just that I hope and pray that you and anyone else who has been reading this discussion would go back through these posts carefully and consider one more time if what I said is true or not. It doesn’t make sense for me to go through your last post and show errors kev, because even though you think that a lot of this discussion we’ve had has been rabbit trails, truth be told, the issue of whether or not our salvation is dependent upon our faith or not is of pivotal importance, because as I said, the whole non-Lordship system stands on the mistaken belief that our salvation is not dependent on anything we do (what must I do to be saved?) Show this to be false and the whole house of cards fall. So it really is critical to know the answer to this.

Oh, I suppose I could just go around in circles with you like a merry-go-round, but showing the very basis of your beliefs to be false would be much easier and less time consuming.

God bless brother,
Bridget

Kevl said...

Hi All,

I'm back. Not really up to speed yet, but back. :)

I've turned posting back on.

Kev

Kevl said...

Thanks for your post JP, your recent work on the content of the Gospel has been great.

As I'm studying Greek its becoming more and more clear to me how easy it is to be doing eisegesis (reading into Scripture) instead of exegesis (reading from Scripture) the doctrines we think are true.

We must must must (hebraic sense) only get out theology directly from Scripture, not from what "seems reasonable."

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget,

Two things, the position I hold is not at all "non-lordship" it is the fact that Jesus actually IS Lord that makes the Gospel possible and that Salvation can be on His terms instead of ours.

Second, you said

because as I said, the whole non-Lordship system stands on the mistaken belief that our salvation is not dependent on anything we do (what must I do to be saved?) Show this to be false and the whole house of cards fall. So it really is critical to know the answer to this.

I said I used to hold the same idea that you do about Faith that it actually is a work? I believed this because of John 6, - the works of God? And how every time someone asked how to be saved they asked "What must I do?"

Do you realize that the Scriptures say that Salvation is apart or more accurately separate from works? Each and every time someone asked God, or an Apostle what they must do the answer was - you can do nothing. Believe and be saved.

We are not saved by anything we "do" we are saved by Grace through Faith. And that Salvation is the gift of God.

It is a gift and can not be earned for if it is earned it can not be a gift, nor can it by by Grace.

If there is anything worthy at all about the person then it is no "by Grace." It is not by unmerited favor.

Which is yet another nail in the coffin of the man made theology of Regeneration prior to faith and salvation.

Kev

bp said...

welcome back. :)

Do you realize that the Scriptures say that Salvation is apart or more accurately separate from works? Each and every time someone asked God, or an Apostle what they must do the answer was - you can do nothing. Believe and be saved.

I agree that salvation is totally separate from works in the sense that there is nothing we do to earn our salvation (including make a choice to believe), but salvation is NOT separate from works in the sense that they will NOT HAPPEN and so that means that nobody "will be" saved without them.

We aren’t saved because we work, we work because we’re saved, which means that if we aren’t working, we better not feel assured that we've been saved or will be saved. And if that sounds contradictory, then go to Lou's blog to see the Scriptural back-up. And BTW: This does NOT mean I look to my works and rely on them to save me.

Kevl said...

Rom 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works

δικαιοσυνην χωρις εργων

Righteousness apart from works.

God "imputes" (λογιζεται) this righteousness. It is not any of these; deserved, earned, proved, or demonstrated. It is "imputed."

Be sure - a Saved person is "reckoned" or "seen as" Righteous. They are not themselves "righteous."

Your works prove nothing of yourself.

But still again, we are not talking about how a person ought to act after they are saved.

We are discussing "What must I do to be saved?"

Paul under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit wrote that righteousness is imputed apart from works. That Salvation is separate from works.

You said I agree that salvation is totally separate from works in the sense that there is nothing we do to earn our salvation (including make a choice to believe)

Paul said it is separate from, not "in the sense that"...

You said but salvation is NOT separate from works in the sense that they will NOT HAPPEN and so that means that nobody "will be" saved without them.

Paul said Salvation is separate from works.

You said We aren’t saved because we work, we work because we’re saved, which means that if we aren’t working, we better not feel assured that we've been saved or will be saved.

Paul said that he was assured of the Corinthians' Eternal Salvation because they had "received" (παρελαβετε) the Good News. He was not assured because of their behavior, nor did it make him question their Eternal Salvation.

You said This does NOT mean I look to my works and rely on them to save me.

You don't rely on your works to save you but you DO have the perverted idea that God will only save those who work.

Kev

bp said...

Rom 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works


Well, I’d have to stipulate that righteousness is imputed apart from any works “men do”. You’re not going to contend that God imputes righteousness apart from works that He does are you?

δικαιοσυνην χωρις εργων

Righteousness apart from works.

God "imputes" (λογιζεται) this righteousness. It is not any of these; deserved, earned, proved, or demonstrated. It is "imputed."


I agree with imputed righteousness.

Be sure - a Saved person is "reckoned" or "seen as" Righteous. They are not themselves "righteous."

I agree.

Your works prove nothing of yourself.

mmm, that would have to be clarified.

But still again, we are not talking about how a person ought to act after they are saved.

We are discussing "What must I do to be saved?"


Here’s where we are not on the same plane. Kev, when you say, “after they are saved”, I’m assuming you are thinking in terms of “after they are converted, or “after” they initially believe and are “justified” before God, right? But do you realize that the Bible speaks of salvation in terms of “having been saved” (conversion), in terms of “being saved” (continual perseverance in faith), and in terms of “will be saved?” (glorified).

I’ve been trying to be as clear as I can cuz I know this is a real sticky point that is hard to grasp, but it IS biblical and I’ve given references in past posts.

It is TRUE that at the moment of genuine faith in Christ, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us INSTANTLY and FOREVER! NO chance of losing that salvation. That was settled then and there.

But at the same time, the Bible teaches us that a faith that is “genuine” (because many will have a faith that is “not” genuine), WILL produce works! (love for Christ and a desire to follow Him, a hatred of sin, etc.), because faith without works is dead, it is not a “genuine” faith. And so without these works (that flow out of a “genuine” faith that resulted in justification), no one will, IN THE END, BE SAVED and so we cannot tell people that they will, because you may be encouraging someone who has a “dead” faith to believe that they have a “genuine” faith.

I keep hearing from you guys that we are constantly talking about what "results" from faith instead of what one has to do to be saved, and I know it seems that way, but I really AM talking about what one must do to be saved. Because when you ask what a person must do to be saved, you are "meaning" what does a person need to do to be "justified", but I'm looking at it from a three-pronged perspective:

-Unless you endure to the end you will not be finally saved.

-Unless you are producing works in keeping with repentence you are not being saved

-And unless you have repented and trusted in Christ for the forgivenss of your sins, you have not "been saved."

By grace alone, through faith alone we are saved at conversion. We are justified before God and forever His. His Spirit in us keeps us persevering, and we are being saved. And He will keep us persevering to the end and we will be saved.

I hope that makes it a little clearer.

Too long, I know :(

Bridget

Kevl said...

Hi Bridget,

You said Well, I’d have to stipulate that righteousness is imputed apart from any works “men do”. You’re not going to contend that God imputes righteousness apart from works that He does are you?

Scripture says that God saves "apart from works." I believe that I answered this question very clearly in the post you are replying to.

You asked But do you realize that the Bible speaks of salvation in terms of “having been saved” (conversion), in terms of “being saved” (continual perseverance in faith), and in terms of “will be saved?” (glorified).

This was also answered in the post you are replying too. Abusing the context of Scripture to fit it into your theology is not proper.

You stated It is TRUE that at the moment of genuine faith in Christ, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us INSTANTLY and FOREVER! NO chance of losing that salvation. That was settled then and there.

If only the rest of your theology matched such a statement.

But at the same time, the Bible teaches us that a faith that is “genuine” (because many will have a faith that is “not” genuine), WILL produce works! (love for Christ and a desire to follow Him, a hatred of sin, etc.), because faith without works is dead, it is not a “genuine” faith.

http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2007/05/can-faith-without-works-save-you.html

Faith does not cause works.

Faith is a trust of something. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit - HIS promised work on us Heb 12 - that causes works.

You said And so without these works (that flow out of a “genuine” faith that resulted in justification), no one will, IN THE END, BE SAVED and so we cannot tell people that they will, because you may be encouraging someone who has a “dead” faith to believe that they have a “genuine” faith.

What is the one test that Scripture uses to ensure someone will be Eternally Saved? Rev 13:8 Rev 21:27 Is your name written in the Lamb's Book Of Life? That is the test.

Works are judged for reward or punishment. Not for Salvation. http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2007/05/thoughts-on-judgment-seat-of-christ.html

Your three prongs -

-Unless you endure to the end you will not be finally saved.

Moses, Solomon.. these two men did not endure to the end. Are they not saved? We've already talked about Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration.... we could talk about some other men who did not "endure to the end" but do we really have to?

-Unless you are producing works in keeping with repentence you are not being saved

Is that so? You're not "being" saved if you're not doing the work? That doesn't seem to match with Scripture AT ALL. Heb 12, the chapter I oft reference seems to state that if we don't respond that the Spirit will just keep going in us. And seeing as a person is "Eternally Saved" the instant they "receive" the Gospel it seems very strange that one can't be "confirmed" or "have assurance" unless they are "good enough" for the rest of their life.

-And unless you have repented and trusted in Christ for the forgivenss of your sins, you have not "been saved."

If one has repented to trust that Christ paid their price and has risen they are in fact eternally saved. No other discussion needed.

Your final statement is crystal clear;

By grace alone, through faith alone we are saved at conversion. We are justified before God and forever His. His Spirit in us keeps us persevering, and we are being saved. And He will keep us persevering to the end and we will be saved.

Scripture tells us a different story. It says that God preserves us. Not that we persevere, either enabled or not. Mat 9:17 Luke 5:38 1 Thes 5:23 2 Tim 4:18 Jude 1:1

We are preserved not enabled to persevere. Scripture shows us the failings of all the men of God. Even the great Apostle Paul who openly mocked the Corinthian's "super apostles" did not lay claim to having "persevered" only that he had fought and "kept the faith." Not that he had been "faithful" but that he had "kept the faith"

Paul found no reason to brag. He would not judge himself. Why? Because he is not justified by what he can see in himself. He answers it himself. 1 Cor 4:1-5 Paul NEVER looked to works for the assurance of his or anyone else's Salvation. Neither do I. Works neither earn you Salvation nor confirm it. Many will do "good works" and in the end will be cast into outer darkness. Mat 7:21-23 They will call Him "Lord" and they will "do good works" but they will never have trusted Him and He will never have known them.

A Christian will do good works, that seems pretty clear in Scripture. However the sinner is ALWAYS told not to work when he asks how to be saved. He is NEVER told to expect to work, want to work, promise to work.. he is told to "receive" and that is it.

Kev

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

You have given Bible based answers to identify and correct the extra-biblical presuppositions drawn from the circle logic of five-point Calvinism that bp is bringing to the discussions.

I have used your reply at my blog since bp posted the identical comments at my blog. See- Is LS a Barter System?


Lou

Kevl said...

Readers,

Lou asked Bridget a clear cut question in his thread. It should be interesting to watch where that leads the conversation.

My post to her here was a tad aggressive but I feel such was required. There are many godly men (and women) who would call themselves "Calvinists" but like "Good Works" does not "confirm" a Christian godly men do not confirm a false doctrine a man might hold.

The presuppositions that Calvinism uses can be exhausting. Each time one point of Tulip is discussed the other 4 are assumed to be true. It is RARE to find a man calling himself a Calvinist who is willing to to discuss a single point of TULIP apart from any support from the other points. While I believe there is some truth to some of the points of Calvinism the whole system is dependent upon it's self. It's an ingenious system for argument because you can draw people into your playing field and get them to play by your rules and any audience that goes along for the ride will be convinced you've "won."

However, I believe God has raised up some great Brethren after the kind of the Bereans. Acts 17:11


Sorry for the length of these posts.

Kev

bp said...

You said Well, I’d have to stipulate that righteousness is imputed apart from any works “men do”. You’re not going to contend that God imputes righteousness apart from works that He does are you?

Scripture says that God saves "apart from works." I believe that I answered this question very clearly in the post you are replying to.


Kev, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this just shows me how dogmatic you are in upholding your chain of errant theology at the expense of truth. You are not even willing to admit that GOD’S works are involved in HIM imputing righteousness to us. That is dogmatic and ridiculous.

What is the one test that Scripture uses to ensure someone will be Eternally Saved? Rev 13:8 Rev 21:27 Is your name written in the Lamb's Book Of Life? That is the test.

Do you think some people will mistakenly “think” that their names are written in the Lamb’s book of Life? Then that test doesn't really work for them, does it? 2 Cor 13:5, James 1:12, James 2:18

We've already talked about Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration.... we could talk about some other men who did not "endure to the end" but do we really have to?

What do Col 1:23, Matt 10:22 , and Tim 4:7 mean?

A Christian will do good works, that seems pretty clear in Scripture. However the sinner is ALWAYS told not to work when he asks how to be saved. He is NEVER told to expect to work, want to work, promise to work.. he is told to "receive" and that is it.

I guess I will just keep saying this: I would never tell an unbeliever that he had to work to “EARN” his salvation. But I would never tell him that he need not look for works to PROVE his salvation, in-fact I would tell him the opposite and that if he didn’t see any, he should have no assurance that he WAS saved or WILL BE saved. (Acts 26:20-21).

I have witnessed to people downtown minneapolis who have said that they believed in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. And when I've probed into their life, they don't read the Bible, they don't go to church, they show no concern over this, and seem bored that I'm even bringing it up. What would you say to them Kev? "Well, as long as you say you believed at one point, then your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. God be with you, brother!?"

Sorry if I didn’t answer everything you said, it’s just so much. If there’s something particular that you really want me to answer, maybe we could go just a few things at a time.

In Christ,
Bridget

bp said...

I would just like to add this Kev (and I hope you're not upset if I was too harsh in my last post):

You said that Scripture never says we should tell a person to expect to work or to want to work if they ask, “What must I do to be saved?” but it needs to be noted that if a person is sincerely asking that question, they are showing evidences of God’s work of saving grace in their life. So to say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save!” is good. But more needs to be explained.

Because IF you later notice that they are showing no evidences of God’s saving grace in their life, what would you say to them?

YOU: I’m worried about you that you aren’t showing a hunger for God and desire to read the word.

THEM: Lay off, you said I just had to believe and I do.

YOU: Oh. Well as long as you say you did.

My husband declared last August that he was tired of faking it and he wasn’t going to church anymore (after 20+ years). He told me that he didn’t believe a lot of what the Bible says, like Jesus dying on the cross for sinners, there being a literal hell and that he especially didn’t believe in prayer. This was quite shocking to me, even though I knew that there were very little evidences of saving faith in his life. Later, he retracted part of it and said he believes that Jesus died for his sins and that there is a literal hell, but he doesn’t believe in prayer or a personal relationship with God, and he said that as long as he believes the fact that Jesus died for his sins, he is saved.

I asked him if he thought that someone who was born-again would have evidences of that new birth in his life. He didn’t know what to say. So I took him through passages in the Bible that talk about these “evidences”. This was the kindest, most loving thing I could do for him Kev. I don’t want to encourage my husband right into hell that he is saved because he mentally assents to some facts.

Can you see that you are hindering the very "means" God uses to shake people off of their false foundation of hope?

Blessings in Christ,
Bridget

Kevl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevl said...

OK I just read your most recent post, about your husband.

Would selling the man a false gospel have helped the situation? Would he be any more of a Christian if he were told he had to work for his salvation? Would he be any more saved if he had been told he had to forsake all or not be saved?

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget, I had 20 minutes so I decided to read your post and respond.

I'm going to comment on your last first.

Sorry if I didn’t answer everything you said, it’s just so much. If there’s something particular that you really want me to answer, maybe we could go just a few things at a time.

Actually all I require in participation from you is that you read the context of the Scripture you quote. That you do not "read into" it. This will be the last post where I correct context. I truly do not mind being proven incorrect but I can not stand having to take the time to inform readers of proof-texting.

You said Kev, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this just shows me how dogmatic you are in upholding your chain of errant theology at the expense of truth. You are not even willing to admit that GOD’S works are involved in HIM imputing righteousness to us. That is dogmatic and ridiculous.

Complain to God about it. I'm simply quoting Him. Romans 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: Since when is quoting Scripture completely in context, with out addition or deletion even POSSIBLE to be "dogmatic"??

Do you think some people will mistakenly “think” that their names are written in the Lamb’s book of Life? Then that test doesn't really work for them, does it?

Sure it does. Do you trust that Christ died for you, was buried, and rose to life again? Then your name IS written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

If a person is going to pretend like they believe that's their issue. It will be plain and apparent that they are not "trusting" by their lack of... oh I don't know.. TRUST. If they are not trusting that then I would not believe they are saved.

Paul never questioned people's salvation based on behavior. He spoke of FAITH. You can play what if games all you like.. Scripture does not.

You cited these Scriptures 2 Cor 13:5, James 1:12, James 2:18 as your defense of a person having to check their works to see IF they are saved....

2 Cor 13:5 is the completion of a sentence. Would you be upset if I quoted half of one of your sentences to make it look like you were saying something you were not?

Here is the full sentence. 2 Cor 13:3a,5

since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you be reprobates

*you may notice I break from the NKJV there and use the KJV wording which follows the Greek. This is a rare instance where the NKJV does not follow the Greek at all.

Paul is defending his apostleship, the test? Is Christ in you? Because if He is then Paul is an Apostle. Read the FULL SECTION of Scripture and the context is PLAIN 2 Cor 10:1 - 2 Cor 13:10

James 1:12 A crown is reward. 2 Tim 4:7-8. How do we know that a Crown is a reward and that "crown of life" is not some image of Eternal Life? In short because of what the Lord says in Rev 3:11 and that the crowns will be cast before the Throne Rev 4:10 Scripture says over and over again that to earn these crowns one must remain faithful, or endure.

James 2:18 Read context, is this the Apostle demanding that faith must be proven to each other by works? Or even to ourselves? Or is he making an other point?

You asked What do Col 1:23, Matt 10:22 , and Tim 4:7 mean?

Col 1:23 - Faith. Not works. Hope, not earning.

Mat 10:22 - The notes in my NASB connects this verse to several others Mat 24:13 Mark 13:13 Gal 6:9 and Rev 2:10 In fact, if you read the Gospel accounts even Mat 10 you will see that this is not about Eternal Salvation at all but deliverance from tribulation.

2 Tim 4:7 - This was discussed in the post you are replying to. But again.. read the rest of the account. This is about reward, not Eternal Salvation.

But I would never tell him that he need not look for works to PROVE his salvation, in-fact I would tell him the opposite and that if he didn’t see any, he should have no assurance that he WAS saved or WILL BE saved. (Acts 26:20-21).

Oh my... you justify this with Acts 26:20-21?? Paul says he preached that they should repent and do works fitting repentance. Not that their works proved their salvation, or that works even can prove salvation. Also, OBVIOUSLY since Paul had to tell them to do the works, works are not part of repentance.

Now I must go, I have an appointment but please, please, read more than the verse that you have been told to quote. And please don't tell me that "study" has brought you to these verses.. unless of course by study you mean you searched for the word "saved" and saw what the verse said...

Read these books as a whole. Read the whole thing and see if what you've been taught to think about these single verses can even fit into what is being said. I used to buy most of it too.. but then I tried to plug Ray Comfort's theology into what the Apostle or the Lord was saying and it didn't fit. It reads good in bullet form in a book... but it does not fit into the thoughts of the Holy Spirit.

Kev

bp said...

Complain to God about it. I'm simply quoting Him. Romans 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: Since when is quoting Scripture completely in context, with out addition or deletion even POSSIBLE to be "dogmatic"??

Kev, you say that I am proof-texting and then you look to those two verses (and maybe others like it) and come to the conclusion that God credits us with righteousness apart from any works, including His own? This would be humorous if it weren’t so tragic.

Do you think some people will mistakenly “think” that their names are written in the Lamb’s book of Life? Then that test doesn't really work for them, does it?

Sure it does. Do you trust that Christ died for you, was buried, and rose to life again? Then your name IS written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Ok Kev, that’s what I’ll tell my husband then, “Hey honey, do you believe that Christ died for you, was buried, and rose to life again?” YEP! “Good, then your name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Don’t worry that you don’t ever read your Bible or that you never pray and don’t even believe in prayer. And don’t worry that you have no love for Christ or desire to know Him. That just means you’ll lose crowns in heaven.”

Know that I say this with compassion and not spite Kev, but I fear for anyone you are mentoring.

If a person is going to pretend like they believe that's their issue. It will be plain and apparent that they are not "trusting" by their lack of... oh I don't know.. TRUST. If they are not trusting that then I would not believe they are saved.

I don’t think my husband is “pretending” to believe Kev. He is deceived into thinking that he has true faith (that he DOES believe). I wonder if you know how cold it sounds to say “that’s their issue”, as if it isn’t any of my concern. It perplexes me that you would say that because it sounds like something a hyper-Calvinist would say.

Paul is defending his apostleship, the test? Is Christ in you? Because if He is then Paul is an Apostle. Read the FULL SECTION of Scripture and the context is PLAIN 2 Cor 10:1 - 2 Cor 13:10

I just read the full section of Scripture and yes, the Corinthians were questioning his apostleship, and Paul was trying to show them the absurdity of them to think that their faith was genuine, but that his apostleship was not, when he was the one who taught them everything.

So he turned their examining of him around to examine themselves, that IF they found their faith was genuine, then they could rest assured that HIS apostleship was genuine. But he’s not saying that if he is a true apostle that their faith is genuine. In-fact, reading the chapters before only confirm that he had fears that their faith was not genuine and that they were turning to a “different gospel”, which is expressed again in James and in his warnings to Timothy and elsewhere throughout the NT. And this is expressed in his very words, “unless indeed you fail to meet the test.”

You even said above,

“Paul is defending his apostleship, the test? Is Christ in you? Because IF he is then Paul is an Apostle.”

You can’t twist this to mean that if he isn’t, then Paul isn’t an Apostle.

James 1:12 A crown is reward. 2 Tim 4:7-8. How do we know that a Crown is a reward and that "crown of life" is not some image of Eternal Life? In short because of what the Lord says in Rev 3:11 and that the crowns will be cast before the Throne Rev 4:10 Scripture says over and over again that to earn these crowns one must remain faithful, or endure.

James 2:18 Read context, is this the Apostle demanding that faith must be proven to each other by works? Or even to ourselves? Or is he making an other point?

You asked What do Col 1:23, Matt 10:22 , and Tim 4:7 mean?

Col 1:23 - Faith. Not works. Hope, not earning.

Mat 10:22 - The notes in my NASB connects this verse to several others Mat 24:13 Mark 13:13 Gal 6:9 and Rev 2:10 In fact, if you read the Gospel accounts even Mat 10 you will see that this is not about Eternal Salvation at all but deliverance from tribulation.

2 Tim 4:7 - This was discussed in the post you are replying to. But again.. read the rest of the account. This is about reward, not Eternal Salvation.


So we don’t have to endure to the end, Kev? We don’t have to keep the faith. All those warnings from Scripture to keep the faith and endure to the end and that people would be lead astray and disqualified and abandon the faith don’t mean anything except you might lose some rewards, is that what you’re saying?

You said Col 1:23 is about faith. Not works. EXACTLY…enduring to the end in FAITH. “…he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death….IF indeed you continue in the faith. First you told me your faith had to be maintained, then you told me it didn’t. Now I think you’re saying it does, but I’m just not sure anymore.

I care about you as a brother, but I just cannot continue to untangle this mangled web of theology you hold to. I’ve read through your whole post and was going to go through paragraph by paragraph, but it is just too mentally exhausting and time consuming.
I’ll pray for you brother, and I hope you'll pray for me, and may God grant grace to show us if and where we are wrong.

In Christ,
Bridget

Kevl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevl said...

Bridget,

Kev, you say that I am proof-texting and then you look to those two verses (and maybe others like it) and come to the conclusion that God credits us with righteousness apart from any works, including His own? This would be humorous if it weren’t so tragic.

This little topic is getting old... I have not added nor taken away. The Scripture says that God saves apart from works. The Apostle does not qualify this statement at all. Your theology does not match what the Apostle wrote. How that makes my believing him instead of you tragic I am unsure.

I don't have time to reply now.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget,

This is too important to let wait.

Ok Kev, that’s what I’ll tell my husband then,

Is telling him he's got to be willing to work going to save him now if he is not already saved? Will changing the Gospel help the situation?


Instead of telling him what he must do, why do you tell him he must believe and then tell him about Jesus. Not about what Jesus expects of you - that is MAN CENTERED (telling him what HE CAN DO to be saved instead of what JESUS DID so he can be saved.)

That's what the Apostles did. What must I do to be saved? Believe. This is what Jesus did so you can be saved.

Not "this is what you must be willing to do. This is true faith. This is how you should act....."

The Apostles didn't try to force or ensure "true faith" the Apostles spoke the true testimony of Jesus.

This will be harsh but you must hear it.

Maybe if people didn't spend so much time telling your husband how to act like a Christian he wouldn't have been able to pretend for so long.

Maybe someone ought to have been concerned with presenting him Something to trust, instead of something to do.

If someone were preaching faith to him instead of works, maybe he might be able to clearly articulate and know if he's trusting or not. Instead of being in a position where he has to prove the quality he might be able to just say "yes" or "no."

Kev

bp said...

Is telling him he's got to be willing to work going to save him now if he is not already saved? Will changing the Gospel help the situation?

You make it very difficult to continue this conversation when you twist my own words and try to imply I am doing and saying something I’m not. I have never EVER told my husband that he has to be willing to work! This is preposterous and it’s no wonder that you twist the whole Lordship issue into a works gospel.

Instead of telling him what he must do, why do you tell him he must believe and then tell him about Jesus. Not about what Jesus expects of you - that is MAN CENTERED (telling him what HE CAN DO to be saved instead of what JESUS DID so he can be saved.)

Twisting my meaning again. I NEVER tell him what he must “do to be saved.” I never tell him what Jesus EXPECTS of him. You are blinded Kevin. You are trying to twist my own words so that it sounds like I am telling him he has to work for salvation.

Telling him that if his faith is genuine…if he has been born of God that there will be evidences of this in his life is exceedingly different than tell him he needs to do these things to be saved. Anger is rising up within me right now and it is not anger stemming from hurt, it is anger stemming from what you are spreading and teaching . I will speak plainly to you. You are leading people to hell with your gospel. You are preaching a gospel with no power to change lives. You are preaching a gospel which says to believe a set of historical facts that won’t necessarily change your life. You would recommend to me that I should tell my husband he must believe when he already professes belief! HE PROFESSES TO BELIEVE! And because of this you would recommend that I hold his hand, whispering sweet encouragement into his ear right into the very jaws of hell! And THIS is the message you are spreading! My heart ACHES for any false believers within your reach.

Bridget

And I’d also include that nobody at my church (including John Piper) EVER told my husband how to act. You make accusations without knowledge. You accuse without understanding.

Kevl said...

Bridget you said,

You would recommend to me that I should tell my husband he must believe when he already professes belief! HE PROFESSES TO BELIEVE! And because of this you would recommend that I hold his hand, whispering sweet encouragement into his ear right into the very jaws of hell! And THIS is the message you are spreading! My heart ACHES for any false believers within your reach.

Is that what I recommended? Did you read my post?

Your husband is not professing faith. He is professing intellectual understanding of a historical event to some degree.

Your words describing his do not indicated the man has faith. They indicate he is confused and tired of "faking" it.

I wonder why he felt like he had to "fake" it? If no one was telling him how a Christian ought to act and saying he had to act that way or he wasn't saved.... why would he spend so much time "faking" if that were not the case?

Flat out, from my limited view, your husband hasn't figured out HOW to TRUST because no one has given him anything TO trust.

The Lordship Salvation you profess says that one must be willing to work. You hide that it is a works based, man centered message by saying that it's really GOD who is working through you.. or that He has regenerated you so you can work... so it's not really YOU working.... it's all double speak circular logic.

The TRAGIC thing is there is a man who KNOWS he's in trouble, who is tired for trying and just needs a Savior and you won't simply tell him about Him.

Stop talking about your husband and start talking about the Lord. He can never ever come to "saving faith" if he must trust in himself, or the quality of his faith. The only thing we can trust in and be saved is Christ Jesus Crucified, Buried and Risen.

Give your husband a reason to HOPE in Jesus and he will. He's hungry, THIRSTY even for new life.

You are looking for evidences of faith aside from faith it's self. You miss the mark because you are deliberately looking the OTHER way. Don't look for maturity in a sinner.

Sow the Good News that Jesus did it and that he must receive it. Then LET HIM receive it. Do not frustrate Grace by making your husband prove himself to you. Prove the Lord Jesus Christ to your husband.

Kev

bp said...

That just sound so sweetly-coated Kev, just like most false teachings do. It’s amazing how you just seem to think you know that my husband is “hungry and thirsty for new life, but he just hasn’t had a reason to HOPE.” My husband isn’t hungry or thirsty for anything that has to do with God. And it’s not because he’s tired of trying to prove he’s saved. Truth be told, he heard enough true exposition of the Word in the last 4 years to realize that he WAS faking it. Oh yes, it’s true, he wanted a gospel of HOPE! So long as that gospel of hope didn’t change his life in any way.

And I say this sorrowfully and with very much compassion because I LOVE my husband, but he would have been fine staying in a church that taught a gospel that you can believe and have nothing change in your life…you can just continue feasting on the world and sin, ignore God and still make it to heaven. Yeah, he was fine with “that” gospel. A lot of people want a gospel like that. “I want to get out of hell, I just don’t want to get out of hell to spend it with Jesus.” But this is just evidence that his faith was not genuine. Sad thing is, he now maintains that he belives.

As I said, I love my husband and would never falsely tell him he needs to work in order to be saved, so don’t presume to know how I interact and talk about Christ with him. Especially when you have shown that your concept of Lordship is so sadly mistaken.

Bridget

Lou Martuneac said...

Bridget:

Lordship Salvation does need to be twisted into a works based message. It IS a works based message based on the writing of its leading advocates.

LS is a promise of works for the promise of eternal life.


LM

Kevl said...

Bridget, this is what you posted about him.

My husband declared last August that he was tired of faking it and he wasn’t going to church anymore (after 20+ years). He told me that he didn’t believe a lot of what the Bible says, like Jesus dying on the cross for sinners, there being a literal hell and that he especially didn’t believe in prayer. This was quite shocking to me, even though I knew that there were very little evidences of saving faith in his life. Later, he retracted part of it and said he believes that Jesus died for his sins and that there is a literal hell, but he doesn’t believe in prayer or a personal relationship with God, and he said that as long as he believes the fact that Jesus died for his sins, he is saved.

I asked him if he thought that someone who was born-again would have evidences of that new birth in his life. He didn’t know what to say. So I took him through passages in the Bible that talk about these “evidences”. This was the kindest, most loving thing I could do for him Kev. I don’t want to encourage my husband right into hell that he is saved because he mentally assents to some facts.


I post this because the thread is very long and someone might buy your "false teacher" comment. Not to open a wound.

Kev

Kevl said...

Bridget, I understand that the conversation is personal and now about someone you most certainly love and cherish. That being said your posts are becoming offensive.

Instead of responding to the offensive parts I'm going to ignore them.

You said A lot of people want a gospel like that. “I want to get out of hell, I just don’t want to get out of hell to spend it with Jesus.” But this is just evidence that his faith was not genuine. Sad thing is, he now maintains that he belives.

OK a what you suppose "a lot of people" want is proof of your husband's faith not being genuine?

You said It’s amazing how you just seem to think you know that my husband is “hungry and thirsty for new life, but he just hasn’t had a reason to HOPE.”

I posted what you wrote about your husband. Have you ever seen someone converted to Christianity? I don't mean someone who "pledged to be a Christian" I mean someone who "laid it all down at the foot of the Cross" who just came to the Savior? Have you ever seen this?

Your words about your husband speak of a man ripe for this. He's tried the pledge. He's tried to act. He's tried to 'fit in' but he just can't pretend any more.

This may seem cruel but I want to show you what you did so you can do something different.

Acts 16:30-34 NKJV

30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Notice that the man knew he needed to be saved - as your husband does because he admitted he didn't believe, that he partially recanted does not convince me. They said to be saved you must believe. And then to produce faith they spoke the "word of the Lord" to him.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The testimony, the rhēma of God. The spoken word. Not by regeneration.. not by commitment but by hearing.

The Apostles didn't go about talking about the man's faith or what he must do.. or what must be done in/through him. They talked about GOD, Jesus Christ. They gave testimony of the Lord to him. And he believed and was surely saved.

Here is what you did;

I asked him if he thought that someone who was born-again would have evidences of that new birth in his life. He didn’t know what to say. So I took him through passages in the Bible that talk about these “evidences”.

Your focus is on him - yes I understand your concern - but that is not where your focus needs to be when you are witnessing. The man knows his need, as a Christian your job is to show him that his needs are FULLY met in Jesus Christ.

If he trusts this, then you will see the conversion you want to see. But focusing on the conversion and change prior to it's happening will only frustrate grace. Of course he will change.. who knows how much or how fast.. but God will work in him. But the CHANGE is not Salvation. The change is but one result of Salvation.

Preaching the change is no more preaching Christ than preaching prosperity is. You are preaching a "benefit" that you have no authority, or knowledge of and you're preaching it like a requirement.

It's like the prosperity preacher who says - you're not saved unless your rich! Or you're not saved if you get sick... You're saying, you're not saved if you're not a mature Christian.

I have read your words here. Most of them I have considered much more deeply than they warrant. I know your position. I know the position of the men who teach you. I see the abuse you have been taught to regularly do to Scripture. I do not doubt that this theology has has a dramatic affect on your beloved husband's life.

Bridget.. tough words. I know you think you have the "theological high ground" here.. but consider. Has there been a single verse you have mentioned here that supposedly shows all these requirements that you have held your husband up to that context has not completely destroyed the use you have been taught to make of it?

I'm just a lay person.. I'm no John MacArthur or John Piper with books and endless sermons and schooling under my belt.. and there is not one thing they have been able to present that Scripture has not refuted for me on this subject.

Don't you notice that my confidence is in the Scriptures and not a position? You might not realize it but I research each post individually. I start from Scratch.. I don't have a "hand book" or a "resource" to go to other than Scripture. I simply read the section quoted... I need not rely on a "system" I just let Scripture speak. It's amazingly consistent... I don't have to worry about IF "all" REALLY means "all" here... if there is no modifier it then means "all". It's wonderfully freeing. I need not make excuses or compromises. Just quote the Scripture.

I have one more important post to make to you. But I want to separate it from this one.

Kev

Kevl said...

OK so my last post was needfully harsh. I hope you will read all of it. This one is advice.

Your husband. He seems to be waffling on if he believes or not. I haven't spoken to him. I have the short paragraphs you wrote about him to go by. You are concerned for his salvation. So am I, based only on what you wrote. He is not professing "faith" or "trust." He is defensive.

We are saved by coming to the Savior. He saves by Grace - unmerited favor. Not by making the person meet the requirements. We receive salvation.

The only "tangible" or externally discernible "test" for Salvation that the Word gives is "love." Do we love each other? We love each other because God first loved us. John 13:35 and most of 1 John.

If you seek "proof" of Salvation you might explore that with your husband. Get him to tell you about Jesus and the Brethren.

If you don't see love, show him the Love of Christ. It's the hearing of the testimony of God that brings faith. Testify of Christ to your husband.

Here is a link that I send people to. http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/truebel.htm

Pastor Zeller mostly has good work, some is not perfect but most is very good.

I just want to encourage you to focus on Christ with your husband, and not your husband. He's done pretending and that means he's not going to "try" to be a Christian - and GOOD ON HIM. He's got to give up "trying" and receive Salvation. Only then will you see the effects of Salvation. And those effects are not requirements, or even "evidences" because they are different in everyone and many unsaved people have the same things going on in their life. So stop trying to craft the new creation and start testifying of the Creator.

Kev

bp said...

Lest you both continue you in your fantasy that you have finally found a poor, down-trodden victim of John Piper’s Lordship teachings, I want to share a few things. Last August when my husband’s cataclysmic departure from church and “faith” came, it was on the heels of some very serious sin issues that I have no intention of sharing, but which almost led to our separation. So there is much you don't know. At the time, his confession was not based on confusion about whether or not he was saved. He did not feel “pressure” to examine himself to find works to prove his salvation at all. He couldn’t have cared less and still doesn’t because he has never waffled on thinking that he IS saved (although for awhile he did say that he didn't even believe in a literal hell or that Jesus came to die for sin).

His confession to me was not that he discovered he was faking it because he didn’t have X number of works, and felt pressure to conform, but that he realized he had no relationship with Jesus Christ, never had, didn’t even believe that you could and was tired of faking that! He was bored with church, not pressured by church. The fact that he now maintains he has no relationship with God and doesn’t even believe in prayer, but he believes Christ died for him and so is saved is proof positive that he feels no need whatsoever to examine anything in his life and likes his life just the way it is.

I find it very puzzling that you say the ONLY test is whether or not someone believes Christ died for their sins and rose again, and when I say my husband confesses that he does you say, “Your husband is not professing faith. He is professing intellectual understanding of a historical event to some degree.” So my question to you is “How do you know!?” Are you saying it’s not enough for me to go on his word that he believes? This just shows the ridiculousness of your aberrant theology. You tell me that he “knows he’s in trouble” (no he doesn’t!), and I should just share the gospel and “let him receive”. That’s ridiculous kev. He’s been in churches for 20+ years, do you think he’s never heard your watered-down gospel before? He admitted last Aug that he has NEVER had a relationship with Christ, because he doesn’t believe in prayer and is perfectly content to stay there.

God have mercy on you for the cancerous theology you are spreading within the body of Christ.

Bridget

bp said...

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?...But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was completed by his works.”

“They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace.’”-Jer 8:11

Kevl said...

Bridget, your theology mocks Christ's work on the Cross. Your posts have turned from discussion to abuse.



Kev

Kevl said...

Readers beware the perverse twisting of James 2 that is rampant in the Church today.

Is not Salvation by Grace through Faith APART from Works? Is not he blessed who is justified apart from works? James 2 is not about Eternal Salvation but the Lordship Camp does not seem to care what level of perversion they go to. They do not care how much Scripture they break or ignore only that their agenda be accomplished.

If Eternal Salvation is not by Grace through Faith, apart from works then Scripture is full of errors and our faith is in vain.

Here is how Bridget quoted James 2:14-26 applying it to Eternal Salvation as per the context of this conversation. Notice how she eliminates the portion of James 2 that tells you what James is talking about so she can then apply it however she likes. This is the same issue that has been seen over and over again in this thread, and any other you can find someone promoting the false message of Lordship Salvation.

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?...But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was completed by his works.”

Here is my imperfect teaching on James 2 http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2007/05/can-faith-without-works-save-you.html

Notice how she is without hope for the man she loves? She does not entertain that the Gospel has power to save. She can not put faith in the Scriptures being true that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Bridget has long sat under teachers of a man centered theology where God is most glorified by the actions and desires of men. As offensive as her recent posts have been she is a victim. Yes she is an active participant in the attack against her but this is to be expected just as Proverbs teaches that we become like those we associate with.

Beware of false teachers of a false gospels coming from within the Brethren. For they spare not the weak for the hunger of their prideful mouths.

Do not be deceived, these do not practice the holiness they demand for the lost to be saved. When asked how they perform they hide their works based man centered message under their supposed humility of being saved sinners, unable themselves to live up to the standard they put before the dying man. They are not spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ they are spreading their own message and seeking disciples after themselves.

Acts 20:29-30

But fear not. Those who enjoy calling God's own children dirty will suffer swiftly. The Lord God has all in hand. 2 Peter 2

So let those who would preach a works based, man centered message of salvation only for those who are worthy be accursed. Gal 1:6-10

This discussion is closed.

Robb said...

"Maybe if people didn't spend so much time telling your husband how to act like a Christian he wouldn't have been able to pretend for so long."

Proof that Lordship Salvation produces false converts...

Anonymous said...

Mans heart is deceitfully wicked, no one would ever put their Faith in God apart from God doing a work in that heart first. There is none righteous no not one..

Lou Martuneac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lou Martuneac said...

Agreed, if you mean- The work of God "in that heart first" is the convincing and convicting work of the Holy Spirit. (John 16:7-11.)

It certainly is NOT the extra-biblical teaching that regeneration occurs prior to and apart from faith, which flows from Calvinism's erroneous teaching of Total Inability.


LM

Todd said...

Please show me any scripture that says there is anything good in man!
The Faith that you speak of does not and cannot find its roots in man, it is the gift of God and not of yourselves as Ephesians correctly states. I am thankful that God chose me because apart from Him first doing a work in my heart I would NEVER have chosen Him

Kevl said...

Todd I'm not interested in silly debate with someone who argues from assumption instead of Scripture.

You may choose to evaluate your own view by asking yourself what faith has to do with being good.

Bad people need to be saved, not good people. Bad people cry out for help in faith that God is good and faithful.

No matter if you evaluate your extrabiblical view or not you are not going to find debate here. You will most assuredly not find me responsive to demands.

Kev

Todd said...

you are right bad people do need to be saved , what I am saying is that The scriptures teach that all people are bad and apart from God being the initiator of the Grace and the Faith that saves, they will remain unrepentant, in fact They cannot nor will not repent unless He grants repentance to them.
Man will not cry out in faith until God first gives him the faith, at the same time that he gives him the grace and repentance...

Kevl said...

Todd,

You seem convinced.

However, simply being convinced and stating something doesn't make it true.

Read this thread if you like but this tired old conversation is now closed.

Kev