Wednesday, December 23, 2009

"Christians" can go "straight to Hell"?

This is a quote from John Piper's twitter feed

First there was this;

Every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu who murders himself and others for his faith goes straight to hell. (1 John 3:15) from HootSuite

Then he followed it up with this clarification...

Key words to ponder in the last post: "Christian" not just Muslim. "Murder" not just kill. "For his faith" not "in faith". from HootSuite

Obviously Mr. Piper's theology is clouding this understanding of the Scriptures. If a "Christian" can possibly go to Hell then there is no Eternal Salvation in Christ... my oh my!

10 comments:

Robb Joseph said...

Samson is in Hell, then?

Kevl said...

Judges 15 seems to end with a blessing from the Lord. Samson even killed for revenge - that's got to be murder and hating....

Kev

Robb Joseph said...

1073 B.C.
23 The princes of the Philistines got together to offer a special sacrifice to Dagon, their god, and to celebrate. They said, “Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hand.” 24 When the people saw him, they praised their god and said, “Our god has delivered our enemy into our hand. He was a destroyer of our country and the murderer of many of us.” 25 It came about when they were in high spirits, that they said, “Call Samson to amuse us.” Samson was brought from the prison, and he amused them. When they stationed him between the pillars, 26 Samson said to the lad who held him by the hand, “Let me free, so I can feel the pillars on which the house is supported and lean against them.”

27 Now the house was full of men and women; all the Philistine princes were there, and there were about three thousand men and women on the roof, looking down while Samson made sport. 28 Then Samson called out to the Lord and said, “O Lord God, remember me, I pray Thee; do strengthen me only this once, O God, that I may at once wreak vengeance upon the Philistines for both my eyes.” 29 Samson took hold of the two central columns on which the building rested, one with his right hand and the other with his left; 30 and he said, “Let me die with the Philistines.” Then with all his might he bent himself, and the building caved in upon the princes and upon all the people that were in it; so these he killed in dying numbered more than those he killed while he lived.

31 His brothers and all his relatives came down, took him away with them, and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in his father Manoah’s tomb. He had judged Israel for twenty years.

Judges 16:22-31 (MLB)

Robb Joseph said...

Kev,

YHVH never gave His consent to Samson's actions.

Robb Joseph said...

Note this:

Then with all his might he bent himself...

"His" refers to Samson, not YHVH's.

Stephen said...

Weird... what definition of "Christian" must one use to conclude they are capable of going to Hell?

And not just for actual murder, but Miseo -- http://www.studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=3404 -- would seem sufficient if JPiper is correct.

Further weirdness comes from saying Jews, Muslims, and Hindu's will go to Hell for murder... as-if that's not where they were already headed. Save the cases of those who enter those other religions post-salvation -- through a poorly advised marriage for example -- believing them Hell bound is not informative.

Lou Martuneac said...

Kev:

Thanks for highlighting this from Piper.

Piper’s Calvinist/Lordship theology grounds assurance of salvation and security to perseverance rather than to the finished work of Christ. Therefore, his conclusion is only what one should expect from him.


Of course, just like his belief that the charismatic sign gifts are for and should be sought after today, this will be excused and tolerated by those who would never teach or accept this in their own ministry. Why; because he writes good books” and they crave the fellowship with him around Calvinism in particular. This is taking on the look of a cult movement based on his personality.


Lou

Jan said...

It took me four times reading it to see what Piper is saying. He should have just said that the Christian faith has no Biblical instructions to wield the sword for Christ during this dispensation and anyone who claims to be doing so is not accurately representing Biblical Christianity. (Oops! Did I just say John Piper should speak dispensationally?! Shame on me. Ahem.) I don't see why he went all cryptic with his "key words to ponder" thing. Maybe he is thinking of the Inquisition? Maybe it would have been better if he had said "nominal Christians" or something. As it is he reduces the Christian faith to the level of these other religions. And I would think there would be some danger of a nominal Christian who has never murdered anyone for the faith or otherwise might think he or she is in good shape even though he or she has never personally trusted Christ's substitutionary atoning death on the cross for his or her sins.

(Incidentally, Samson is mentioned favorably in Hebrews 11:32.)

JanH

Fred R. Lybrand said...

Hey...I'm coming out of my transition (retirement from the pastorate).

You are right (and I'm grieved) about Piper.

My take (see www.backtofaith.com) on the whole thing is that that Piper isn't consistent (he's incongruent) because sometimes he affirms grace like most of us would...and, yet...he also takes it away in his inconsistency.

His problem is that he has merged faith and works in an illogical and unscriptural way.

Separating sanctification from justification (and being consistent) would cure him!

All, of course, in my view,

Fred Lybrand

Kevl said...

Hey Fred,

It must be a huge transition. I've got 15 months to go with my current career (Avionics) until I can enter ministry full time. I'm learning all I can now... and I'm so eager I can hardly believe it.

I can only imagine all the things that are going on in your mind and heart as you make this change.

I've always thought I was somewhat skilled - be that though accurate or not - at recognizing incongruence however I've found since reading your book that I'm much more keenly aware of the issue. There are several reformed leaning preachers whom I respect greatly - James MacDonald for example - but more and more I'm hearing the incongruence in their preaching.

It's amazing how I used to consider such as "tension" not flat out disagreement.

Thanks for stopping by!!
Kev