Thursday, August 04, 2011

Some Things I've Noticed

What a Summer! What a Summer....

I recently decided to stop fellowshipping at the same church I've been at for the last two years. You know compromise seems like such a good idea... but think about the whole debt ceiling thing in the USA. They've just come to some, non-specific, compromise that will let them stick their heads in the sand until 2013.. when (if the Lord tarries) they'll have the same "crisis" all over again and they'll have all the same issues to deal with.

Compromise isn't always helpful. Do you compromise in life? Sure, about desires... about wants... about schedules... but not about TRUTH. You can't "compromise" about TRUTH because then TRUTH becomes compromised - and does not remain TRUE.

I'm truly sick of the Lordship Salvation movement.  So here are a couple of things I've noticed about it that really make me scratch my head.

When I hear a Lordship Salvation proponent talking about repentance being turning over a new leaf, changing direction, turning from sin, forsaking sin, stopping sin, feeling remorseful enough to never want to sin again, hating sin, changing from disobeying God to seeking only to obey Him, submitting one's self to the mastery of Christ over all areas of your life... or any number of other definitions that go beyond what the Scriptures say.... well I almost invariably suggest that the person take a listen to a very good, very complete study of all the usages of "repentance" in the OT and NT in the form of a course freely offered online by the Bible Believers Network Bible Institute. I always note that the course is about 5 hours long.

You know what response I get? Consistently, actually without exception, the Lordship Salvation proponent will balk at taking a free 5 hour course on repentance that goes through the Bible passage by passage. I cannot tell you the motivation of the person - only God knows a person's heart - but I can tell you about how hypocritical it looks to me, every single time. You see the person will have been telling me how "true" Christians are sold out for God and seek to obey Him at all times in all ways, that they have completely submitted their will to that of God. Yet they balk at spending 5 hours on the fundamental doctrine they preach.... Seriously? How am I supposed to react to this?

Consistently, I react by telling that I understand that 5 hours is quite an investment (while trying to keep from either sighing or sounding sarcastic - sometimes neither is at all easy) and so I suggest that they pick up a copy of HA Ironside's Unless You Repent. You can get it from and and in many GOOD Bible stores. It costs about $12... Guess what? That's too much apparently... or they don't want to order from Amazon.. or they have some other excuse. OK I understand that sometimes money is tight, and one might not be too sure of the validity of the work of a Canadian. ;) So how do I respond?

Well there is a free version of this work online but it is in older King James English. It can be found at Wholesome Words (PDF). At this point the one I'm speaking with will sometimes tell me they will "take a look at it" however, I have yet to ever have a single person come back to me to tell me that they have actually done so.

So what am I to think about all of this? Well I think you know what I think about all this. I also have a deep, deep dislike of how some people will preach to others that they must be sold out for Christ in order to qualify for Salvation, that they must forsake all in order to attain Eternal Life, and that if they haven't submitted every area of their life to the mastery of Jesus Christ that they will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire - and yet the preacher is himself very worldly.

You know, the Lord did say that you can tell a Prophet by his fruit. Do I believe the gospel you preach? Not much chance if I must first ask you; do YOU?


Jan said...

some people will preach to others that they must be sold out for Christ in order to qualify for Salvation, that they must forsake all in order to attain Eternal Life, and that if they haven't submitted every area of their life to the mastery of Jesus Christ that they will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire - and yet the preacher is himself very worldly.


I think you hit an important nail there. Some of these LS preachers are downright scary in not only their worldliness but in how unChristlike they are. It reminds me of something I saw a couple of days ago.

I have been researching something called Revolution Church that I learned about from Bruce Bauer, who learned about it from Rob Congdon. One of the leads landed me at a video by Matt Chandler, who is boy buddies with Mark Driscoll. Let me tell you what! This guy Chandler has to be one of the least Christlike Christians I have ever seen and it's all in subtle form. It was all in his demeanor and priorities: the way he used humor to be ugly, the casual assumption of power, the utter self centeredness. He was trying to explain to his church why they were an Acts 29 church and the whole reason was all about HIM and HIS needs. THEY had to be involved in this network so HE could get HIS boy buddy needs met. Seriously. I'm not exaggerating. The ENTIRE CHURCH has to join this group AS A CHURCH so HE can have fellowship among these other pastors. And of course there is no vote. So it's "I need this so you're going to join." I have no idea why he cannot as a single pastor who represents no one but himself get together with other pastors who do the same and have his peer fellowship the usual way. Nope. The WHOLE CHURCH has to get on board AS A CHURCH so HE can get HIS pastoral fellowship needs met. There is something very wrong there.

Hmm. That wasn't quite where I was going when I started this comment but I'll let it stand anyway. Perhaps more later, because I was really thinking the exact same thing about LSers and worldliness.


Anonymous said...

Wow...great observations. I know exaaaactly what you mean! Btw, I'm signed up at BBNI and am currently taking that very course at the recommendation of David Wyatt during a previous discussion at Jack Weaver's blog! I've listened to the first sermon about 3 times now, and need to hear it again before I proceed to the quiz.

Additionally, a discussion morphed into a Lordship one at my blog back in June and many of the sentiments you mention here were brought up: mourning and weeping over sin, never wanting to give in again so as to contribute to Christ's sufferings; calling himself "Christ's Slave" (even changed the name of his blog to that); totally selling himself out to Christ, and on and on it went until finally Jack and Jan stopped him in his tracks. He's not been back since. In fact, my initial request to use your Youtube Gospel presentation was in response to his Lordship recruitment efforts by posting Paul Washer sermonettes which had the potential to scare the bejeebies out any believer. (sigh)... I've also had former blog friends completely "drop me" since that discussion took place. Wow.

Anyway, I found your insights applicable and timely. Enjoying your blog, too. I need to appropriate time to dive into the Kool-Aid series...those look very interesting.

Kevl said...

Hey Pearl,

There's a sneaky - yet recommended by BBNI themselves - way of completing the courses. Take the test WHILE you are listening to it. I always save the MP3's on my computer so I can listen to them again and again but I take the test while I'm listening.

You'll find that the questions are answered in order. I still manage to get some wrong... not sure how that works.. but anyway :)


Jan said...

OK. Kev watched the video in question and made an observation that might change the terrain a bit.

Kev was wondering whether the audience Chandler was addressing was his congregation and frankly, the idea never occurred to me that it was anyone else. And that led to another observation: the blog I saw it on was not Chandler's blog but another Acts 29 pastor's blog. That pastor was saying that Chandler summed up why his own church was an Acts 29 church.

Now, the thing about this Acts 29 group is, it is selective. They put candidates through an extensive screening process. Therefore, it is very possible that the audience was not Chandler's church at all but rather a group of Acts 29 wannabe pastors. In which case all Chandler's self centered comments would make sense. Though it doesn't help that other pastor's case much, unless he too is aiming the video at other pastors/Acts 29 wannabes. He did not say one way or the other.

That does still leave the question of why the entire church needs to be part of this network rather than the pastors joining as individuals for the fellowship.


Kevl said...

Thanks for posting this Jan!

Perhaps the answer to your question is that the organization wants to ensure unity is maintained, and that once a Pastor is accepted into it his congregation doesn't then cause problems for him??

I really know nothing about the organization.


Anonymous said...

Good to know, I can get on with it!

Hi Jan! :o) - Keep researching!

Lou Martuneac said...


I'd be curious to see the video you mention about Matt Chandler. Please send it to me via e-mail.